Actually precedent doesn't matter because the new rule on overtaking is from 2022. We can call it the Verstappen rule because if the car being overtaken can't stay on track they aren't entitled to space. Specifically inserted to avoid what Max did in Brazil 2021.Just_a_fan wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 21:00And precedent allows that.chrisc90 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:08Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.
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Just as Russell didn't get a penalty for causing Leclerc to go off track.
Ok i saw after replays. This is the following part of the turn after corner exit. Him driving off had little to do with his move on russel. Russel backed out around the apex.chrisc90 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:08Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.
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Nothing is being made up. That's simply not how that works.Mandrake wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 23:12There are so many posts here how to make overtaking better. Yet for the Hamilton / Russel incident people are making up more and more reasons why Russel round the outside was not obliged to be given space. If you say Hamilton was not in the wrong here then there will never be more overtaking in F1. You can overtake on the inside and the outside. Both cars need to stay on track and give space. Hamilton failed to do in this instance.
Hey that's me ...
This was a less aggressive version of Verstappen-Hamilton in Brazil 21.Mandrake wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 23:12There are so many posts here how to make overtaking better. Yet for the Hamilton / Russel incident people are making up more and more reasons why Russel round the outside was not obliged to be given space. If you say Hamilton was not in the wrong here then there will never be more overtaking in F1. You can overtake on the inside and the outside. Both cars need to stay on track and give space. Hamilton failed to do in this instance.
The joy of using different racing lines is that you will be at different speeds at different parts of the corner. In many cases the car on the outside will not be ahead at the apex but will be able to accelerate earlier at the exit offsetting that benefit. If you are ahead at the apex being on the outside you have literally already completed the overtake - at least at fast sweepers like Spoon
From the interview and body language of the pit crew and team principals, I can see that Mclaren and Ferrari's team spirit and confidence are very high at the moment and they look like they are having lots of fun racing even when they are not winning. Merc on the other hand is operating under tremendous pressure to deliver the 8th WDC for LH and anything other than a win doesn't seem to justify a good celebration.f1316 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 21:05Very very dull race but what else is new. The irony is, even if something had happened to Max - and even with Perez being AWOL - it would *still* have been a dull race, as Mclaren were a clear step ahead of Ferrari and Mercedes here. Really shows how going all in on the Red Bull philosophy and architecture has been worthwhile for them and how the other ‘big teams’ reluctance/stubbornness really cost them (we know this but it was yet another clear example).
McLaren’s meteoric rise when making this shift gives more optimism for me for next year than many other say - ie that it’s over for competition until 2026 - as I think Ferrari and Mercedes have the resources to make such a step for next year (and are coming from less far back than Mclaren were) but I’m an optimist but nature! Roll in next year anyway.
The stewards disagreeing hasn't proven to be a good judge of right and wrong these past few weeks. Whether you are overtaking or defending, going off track (unless you were forced there) should never be part of it. That's gaining an advantage.TFSA wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:46Well the stewards obviously disagree. Whether it's because they're teammates is a topic for debate, but the stewards in general wasn't f*cking around this weekend if you ask me.Cs98 wrote:George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.
And the most number of P17s of any driver which, coincidentally, is the same as the number of P2s. Very much a season of hot and cold so far.
By definition, the stewards define right and wrong by their decisions.Cs98 wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023, 08:05The stewards disagreeing hasn't proven to be a good judge of right and wrong these past few weeks. Whether you are overtaking or defending, going off track (unless you were forced there) should never be part of it. That's gaining an advantage.TFSA wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:46Well the stewards obviously disagree. Whether it's because they're teammates is a topic for debate, but the stewards in general wasn't f*cking around this weekend if you ask me.Cs98 wrote:George is off the track because he is being forced there. The debate here is whether it's legal or not to force him off the track. I think not since Lewis himself goes off the track and is thus not in control of his car when making his defensive move. The "from the apex" argument is a legitimate one when the defending car is in control, not when they're just bombing up the inside with no way of making the corner.
“This is all about let them race, let them race”chrisc90 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:08Lewis had all 4 tyres off the track.
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If this is the rule then Lewis overtake on RUS in Singapore was never on. I clearly saw people stating that RUS should have left room which he clearly didnt need to. Late braking into a disappearing wedge is never going to end well. Now I can also see why the stewards decided that NOR should also have his position backdialtone wrote: ↑24 Sep 2023, 20:00This is the rule for outside:
Even here is ‘among the various factors when exercising their discretion’.
In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.
If the behavior of the overtaken car isn’t safe they will penalize even if they were ahead. In my humblest opinion they would have penalized here if it wasn’t among teammates.
Edit: also note that the car being overtaken needs to stay within the track limits.