OMG! Why haven't I seen this interview posted before!?!?

[Metar]

We are not even 2 races into a new season and mclaren creates yet again controversy and gains a penalty.

No they have not been punished enough by Mosley imo. They have learned nothing. They keep on dragging our sport through the gutter. When will it end?

Err... You are aware that this was a pure mistake by the drivers? It's not like it was a team decision to block Heidfeld and Alonso.

I agree with the grid-penalty - they have blocked, after all - but that was no team action, for sure. The drivers just happened to be there at the wrong time, as they (probably) assumed no-one else was on a hotlap. After Melbourne, most drivers are very aware that blocking is easily punished.

[Project Four]

Ever since McLaren got punished for the spygate case I have struggled to follow the logic behind the punishment and the judgement and the Mosley video has only confused me even more. And, that is not because of Mosley's lawyer speak.

McLaren got punished because as an organisation although they did not know what was going on they should have, where as Alonso did know and did use the information but did not get punished.

Mosley even agreed, when pushed, that Alonso was cheating. Then when asked outright, so Alonso cheated, retreated in the fact that the use of information was cheating by the team, but Alonso had no control over this and it was not up to him whether McLaren used it. Hello, but wasn’t it Alonso who was communicating with Pedro Rosa asking questions about what Ferrari were doing and using.

I still can not see how that you can punish the team because they had the information and did know about it, but not punish someone who knew they had spy data and actively went out of his way to use it.

[P_O_L]

We are not even 2 races into a new season and mclaren creates yet again controversy and gains a penalty.

No they have not been punished enough by Mosley imo. They have learned nothing. They keep on dragging our sport through the gutter. When will it end?

Err... You are aware that this was a pure mistake by the drivers? It's not like it was a team decision to block Heidfeld and Alonso.

I agree with the grid-penalty - they have blocked, after all - but that was no team action, for sure. The drivers just happened to be there at the wrong time, as they (probably) assumed no-one else was on a hotlap. After Melbourne, most drivers are very aware that blocking is easily punished.

Well i dont know. To me it looked pretty silly a professional team like mclaren cannot guide their drivers to stay out of the way of other cars. That is the job of the pitwall. It was rather a lack of action of the team in general. And with the 2007 spygate in mind, ud expect them to keep a low profile for the time being.
Also, i remember The Great Lewis doing something similar in brasil qualifying last year where he escaped a penalty.

Looking back at the videos seeing the speed difference between the mclarens and the bmw i think they are lucky not to get a bigger penalty.

[Project Four]

We are not even 2 races into a new season and mclaren creates yet again controversy and gains a penalty.

No they have not been punished enough by Mosley imo. They have learned nothing. They keep on dragging our sport through the gutter. When will it end?

Why P_O_L you’re right those dastardly McLaren’s how low will they go. Did you see Ron (Dick Dastardly) Dennis he was on the pit wall and he told Hamilton and Heikki to quickly stop that Alonso pigeon.

[P_O_L]

lol

I do think he said wordings of that extend during that Spa 98 race, where DC robbed shumi of a certain 3rd world championship.

Today however, simply looked like stupidity combined with arrogance. They told both their drivers to enage the crawl mode and simply did not tell there where other competitors on track. Like there werent any.

[checkered]

OMG! Why haven't I seen this interview posted before!?!?

I don't

know; because you didn't look hard enough? "Another reason to suggest Max Mosley should quit? (F1T thread)", original interview released on BBC's Hard Talk website Oct. 31st, 2007. There's also quite a wide-ranging selection of topics to choose from (regarding the various incredibilities touched upon here), the contents of which (without exaggeration) easily equal several books' worth of text. The issue has been covered from fans', legal, technical, moral and other perspectives. There's still some pressure to be released from the boiler of this case, but re-heating some long gone issue has the same passive-aggressive flavour to it as returning home to find one's partner steaming more than the sorry lukewarm plate left standing on the table.

[mep]

Last year after Kimis Melbourne victoy there was Norbert Haug
(quite a high animal at McLaren Mercedes) on german TV telling that
they have quite good informations that Ferrari is using something illegal.

So he propably knowed the Ferrari documents.
And a flexi floor is not easy to detect.
Ferrari propably even wondered how they could figured that out and started
to find a answer to this.

[Rob W]

McLaren got punished because as an organisation although they did not know what was going on they should have, where as Alonso did know and did use the information but did not get punished...

We really don't need to go down this path of discussion again. It is also well established that others in McLaren did know about the documents. And you could argue that Hamilton, by virtue of any improvements which came about from any mods/improvements to the car, was therefore also technically cheating every time he raced the car thereafter.

Moreso, the contribution to the overall spygate saga (at the McLaren end) would be something like:

Coulghan/tech dept- 99%
De La Rosa/Alonso- 1%

People seem to hinge on the Alonso aspect purely because he was the most public figure involved and the only one involved actually driving a car in the competition. Get over it. Every single driver on the grid would openly accept info which improved their lot if they thought they weren't going to get caught.

I'm sure Alonso isn't a saint, but please - some perspective. He was almost nothing in the scheme of things and scope of the whole saga.

R

[Rob W]

I still can not see how that you can punish the team because they had the information and did know about it, but not punish someone who knew they had spy data and actively went out of his way to use it.

This one is really simple. They offered the drivers immunity in return for coming completely clean over any involvement. A simple, practical offer which is common in many legal systems.

R

[Conceptual]

I'm sorry that it offends you so much Checkered, by all means, dont hurt yourself anymore by reading on this thread. I just checked, and there are several other posts that could use your input, so please dont waste your time here.

Anyways, I dont think there really is much room for discussion, as this video was very good at showing. Max knows ALL ASPECTS first hand. He is the sole integrator of all perspectives, so I believe that what he says due to the relentless questioning of the interviewer is the absolute best description of the entire situation. IT answered every question I had on the subject, and i am sorry I didnt see it sooner...

Checkered, I'll be sure to subscribe to the Google crawler results for F1, and read every entry that it contains. Then, maybe then, can I know as much as you.

Thanks!

Chris

[Spencifer_Murphy]

We are not even 2 races into a new season and mclaren creates yet again controversy and gains a penalty.

No they have not been punished enough by Mosley imo. They have learned nothing. They keep on dragging our sport through the gutter. When will it end?

P_O_L how exactly have Mclaren cheated this year?

And please don't tell me you are reffering to the Q3 blocking incident at Sepang?

If you are then everyone else on the track except for Alonso & Nick (and anybody else on a flyer - which is very few if anyone else at all) are almost just as bad.

The Mclaren drivers slowed down to conserve fuel at the end of qualifying - name one team who doesn't do that. To me its a safety issue which is there because the rules do not prevent this from happening (Cars circulating slowly to conserve fuel while others are completing their last lap). It's something I think the FIA need to look at. I think maybe a rule that stipulates that in & out laps must be no more than (picking a random number here) 120% of their fastest lap. This would remove this blatent safety issue.

The exception here (and the reason Mclaren got penalised) is that at Sepang the Mclaren drivers were the only two who were on the racing line as Nick & Alonso passed. This is clearly sheer thoughtlessness on their part and they got penalised for it (rightly too I think - god knows why they were on the racing line when other cars are circulating at speed - maybe they didn't think others were, but that's a silly thing to do).

They desreved the penalty because they caused a blockage for Nick & Fernando, but they were not activly trying to cheat or block other drivers. Why would they do that in such a situation - so their cars can get rammed up the back by a BMW traveling at 130MPH more than them? Just to give their mechanics a hard night rebuilding them and thus compromising their race further? Highly unlikely.

I know you don't like Mclaren, no1 is saying you must or anything. But its so unlikely that they were deliberately trying to block, the Mclaren acrs were part of a (i think) 4 car pack at that point of the track - but onoly they were on the racing line. They do deserve the penalty, but they are hardly trying to cheat or drag our sport through the dirt. Neither Nick or Fernando complained about them "cheating" they complained that their lap time was compromised - and rightly so.

[P_O_L]

I think you are a bit carried away. I never said they where cheating. Perhaps in spa 98 but not this time, i think.

It was stupidity combined with arrogance. Creating a hugely dangerous situation for someone who was on a lap better than both mclarens did.

I said they are dragging our sport through the gutter with their constant negative sour grape sporting attitude and lack of ethics. The spygate, the accusation Williams was cheating and should be excluded, the nagging at the FIA office about floors and dampers of fellow competitors ..they dont do one jot for the reputation of mclaren or our sport in general. Now they get fined again and brought back 5 places.

Again, if as team like mclaren cant guide their drivers to stay off the racing line it makes them look very silly. And i firmly believe in the line of this thread, that they have not been punished enough by the FIA. They should keep a low profile but it appears they dont give a damn. About the sport, the fellow competitors, the fans, the public image, the sponsors. Nothing. And not even 2 races into 2008 i find that a shame.

[DaveKillens]

Sheesh, and I'm weary of the constant whining and accusations against McLaren. I'm no fan of Ron Dennis, but this is wearisome.

[Steven]

I think you are a bit carried away. I never said they where cheating. Perhaps in spa 98 but not this time, i think.

It was stupidity combined with arrogance. Creating a hugely dangerous situation for someone who was on a lap better than both mclarens did.

I said they are dragging our sport through the gutter with their constant negative sour grape sporting attitude and lack of ethics. The spygate, the accusation Williams was cheating and should be excluded, the nagging at the FIA office about floors and dampers of fellow competitors ..they dont do one jot for the reputation of mclaren or our sport in general. Now they get fined again and brought back 5 places.

Again, if as team like mclaren cant guide their drivers to stay off the racing line it makes them look very silly. And i firmly believe in the line of this thread, that they have not been punished enough by the FIA. They should keep a low profile but it appears they dont give a damn. About the sport, the fellow competitors, the fans, the public image, the sponsors. Nothing. And not even 2 races into 2008 i find that a shame.

I think that is a bit harsh. It was to me just a driver's mistake, as they can expect others to still be in their quick laps. The drivers are professionals and it is not really up to the team to hold their hands all the way through the sessions.
A 5 place penalty was actually what could be expected and is rather fair from my point of view. Any driver could make that mistake, and I think it will be very unlikely they like to be 5 places down

[P_O_L]

It is just my opinion but it seems some people get rather touchy when you express your feelings about current events surrounding mclaren. I thought the spygate was burried but someone felt the need to post another thread about it again. If someone links those events to yet another penalty for mclaren suddenly its not nice?

Bottom line is they get fined again over something they could and should have avoided. Im gonna leave it at that.