Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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radosav
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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here is the article (translated from croatian language) made by Rob Wilson and send to his friend in Croatia, Mladen Jergovic, who published it on his website.http://mladenjergovic.com/lewis-i-kimi-svijet-za-sebe


Lewis and Kimi - a world unto itself

Ah, finally we were able to adjust things, and here I am in this first appearance for the website of my old friend.

First, he asked me to introduce you what i(usually) do, at least when I am not playing my guitar in London's country band. I know, I know, and Mladen doesn't think anything good about this kind of music, but I enjoy it and I have to say that we have even appeared in America. There they know something about music and such ... and don't throw beer cans.

what you want to know is not it. What you might want to know something about my way of training drivers. I'm involved in it since the mid-eighties, and systematically since 1988., When I was working with my first client, Australians David Brabhamom, which a year later was British champion in Formula 3, and then he managed to get to Formula 1

I work with drivers from all categories of auto sports, including rally, and so far I'm still on a one-on-one probably worked with about two thousands of drivers over the years. I must say that I work quite unique in the world there is no one in this way, in such conditions, addressing each (professional) driver individually.

All we need are two miles of asphalt, some plastic cones and plain rented road car, something like a Skoda Octavia and Opel Astra. I worked for many years on the track at Goodwood, but the last 15 years mainly drive the Bruntingthorpe airfield, about two hours north of London. Also, travel and training in various parts of the world, mostly in the United States and Australia.

The principle of operation is not very complicated. First, sit in the car and I give a lecture on my dynamic manipulation of mass car around corners. It takes more than two hours, and not so boring as it seems, especially for drivers who do know exactly what I mean. Then the driver gets into the passenger seat, and I'm behind the wheel. One round heated clutch and brake (yes, this should be done on an ordinary road car ...) and then I drove one quick lap, in which we measure time. Then we stop, change places and then begins the most interesting part of the training: working on the driving style of each driver.

Drivers usually do not have a particular opinion and not specially excited when I drove one a quick lap. They all have very deep into the sport and are not particularly impressed or scared. But, most of them are very surprised when later in that same car alone take a quick lap, and eventually discover that there were three or four seconds slower than me (within lap which lasts about a minute and a half ) . Of course, most of them are convinced that they made a mistake somewhere, and insist that you try again. But usually only now somewhere ahead and time is usually even slower ...

The secret is not great. Dynamic manipulation of the curves is no trick. It is more about physics and logic, and a fairly deep understanding of the way the key parts of the car, such as engine and brake, and also the ways in which physical forces act in any, even the smallest segment of each curve on the track.

The vast majority of drivers, whether it is about those still in Formula 3 or a Grand Prix driver, your skills are honed instinct. Their careers are usually so intense and dynamic that, in fact, rarely engaged in perfecting the techniques of driving. Because substantially all learned (or think they have learned) still in karting and in Formula Ford and Renault, and then adapting to each new talent and advanced category of the competition. Simply, they never stopped to address the deeper the technique of driving, at least in the aspect that I am trying to draw attention.

I worked, of course, with many F1 drivers in these almost 25 years. They are all, of course, very, very good drivers. But they are all still with me had the opportunity to fix a lot. Among other things, and also because they wanted to, they had indeed surpass my time per round! Mills is the fact that this mode is excellent: when someone comes to Formula 1 must, by default, is already considered to be a pretty good driver. Then he sees me, who does not look like Mr. Universe, and think ˝ This would be too easy. ˝ and then, clearly, there is a little landing. But also, it forces them to work on themselves and their run, and become better drivers.

Exactly half of this year's F1 grid, then twelve drivers have undergone training so far with me. Some only once or twice, some, such as Bruno Senna and Pastor Maldonado, a dozen or more times. With drivers coming constantly, like Bruno before a day or two, we are working on certain curve simulations for these races. In this particular case, we worked on the simulation curve of 90 degrees, which is one of the hallmarks of trails in Singapore. (Pastor is a very good driver, I have to say a lot faster than Bruno Senna. Course, has to work on his patience ... and coexistence with other drivers on the track. Bruno is much calmer, and perhaps more systematic. On the long run, if he had the chance, he be in Formula 1, and could have gone further ...)

two drivers came to me once, in the very beginning of his F1 career, and i said to both of them that they no longer have to come. One, Lewis Hamilton, he immediately improved my time, second, Kimi Räikkönen, drove nearly the same time and then at the end he greatly improved my time.

The two men are the drivers with the most natural talent who have worked with me in this quarter century. Their pure, raw speed, their coordination of the head and arms and legs, their reflexes and their control during cornering dynamics of car - this is something truly unique, something I'm trying to learn all the riders who come to me, and as these two have, I guess from birth. Comparison of the two? I think that Lewis by one circle of the fastest driver in the world today, though in recent times, as the older, shows that he is able to connect a lot of those rounds into a whole. Kimi is definitely the fastest race car driver in the world today.

With Kimi I worked in 2001 as soon as he came into Formula 1, and I think that, with the passage of years,he is getting better and better. The only change now is that, I think, much more mature and more thoughtful. Lotus which drives this season is a good F1 car, but apparently not so good when there is not much gasoline. From there is problems in qualifying, and from there are problems with overtaking in the final stages of the race. Overtaking Kimi understands very simple: get close to someone, look at how it is best to do, and overtake him. The fact that he wasn't good this year in the final stages of the race, is telling me that team has a problem that something is not quite processed about the car he drives.

Hamilton show how everything should be done in 2007. Now it's just faster. Of course, in the last three years the McLaren car was not worthy of his skills. Now the situation is a little better and I think he is the biggest favorite to win the championship this year. Certainly, by pure his speed it would be totally deserved. But, as you know, things are never quite simple. other factors can still get involved in the game.

I think Hamilton and Räikkönen will always be faster than anyone else in similar circumstances, that is, in the same car. So it would be wonderful to see them on the same team, but it is, I suspect, will not happen. Pity.

radosav
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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in comments beneath the article, Mladen Jergovic answered many questions.
he said that Kimi used Rob's services numerous times (how much exactly he didn't say) after joining Mclaren.
one driver on the current grid (not Kimi) , world champion x times , used Rob's services 15 times.
how many times Hamilton went to Rob he(Mladen) doesn't know .
Schumacher worked with Rob, Alonso not yet, but he is planning to visit Rob after this season, during the winter (negotiations are underway).
and most important, this is the first Rob's article in a series of many planned, where he will talk about every driver he worked with.

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raymondu999
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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Great stuff mate, thanks.

I think it's given beautiful context to these videos I posted earlier:
Interesting that he calls it "dynamic manipulation of mass" - it sounds like a term one might encounter in vehicle dynamics, but I think he coins a lot of phrases himself sometimes as his words and phrases such as shortening corners, flatspots etc are very unconventional in their usage.

I wonder now though - those with vehicle dynamics knowledge and qualifications, if you could quantify some of the techniques he says to use. Ie if you were to plug in numbers in a (in Rob Wilson's vernacular) shortened vs lengthened corner, how much benefit would each give?

I wonder too if he has training in at least some basic vehicle dynamics, or if he just derived his collection of best practices through sort of logical deduction and his racing experience. Theory isn't always the same as practice, I know, but I'm sure it helps, in his line of work; especially as the truth of the matter can be so counterintuitive at times. I'm not doubting - just wondering.
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Nando
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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very interesting there about Kimi and Lewis. I think we all knew to some extent they were extremely good drivers but could anyone elaborate on what he means here?
"I think that Lewis by one circle of the fastest driver in the world today, though in recent times, as the older, shows that he is able to connect a lot of those rounds into a whole. Kimi is definitely the fastest race car driver in the world today."
First sentence, if anyone could break it down for me that would be great.
What does he mean "by one circle" then say Kimi is the fastest in the world today?

Does he mean in one aspect or what?
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bcoxa
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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I took it to mean that lewis is the quickest over one lap, and as he goes on is starting to be able to build that into more laps. Kimi is already there and the quickest over a race distance.
I'm not an engineer, just an experiment.

Nando
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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bcoxa wrote:I took it to mean that lewis is the quickest over one lap, and as he goes on is starting to be able to build that into more laps. Kimi is already there and the quickest over a race distance.
Ahh ok now i get the "once circle" thing.. one lap basically. Thanks for clearing it up, gotta learn the Wilson-vocabulary it seems :)
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"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

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raymondu999
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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The one circle thing isn't the Wilson vocabulary, much as I dislike the Wilson vocabulary. It's Google translate from Croatian! :lol:
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raymondu999
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I just had a sort of eureka moment. This "shorten the corner" business - what if it's true in road cars? A road car generates lift as it goes along - and the slower you're going, the less lift you'll have. Effectively, you have more "downforce" (ie less lift) and thus more grip at lower speeds - and this shortening of corners would mean that you're actually able to rotate the car with more grip in that slower speed - leading Mr. Wilson to say that on average it is quicker to shorten the corner, because the extra speed carried on a wide line isn't enough to make up for the better traction of a V-shaped corner.

Whether or not this translates to an F1 car I think is a bit of a dodgy business - F1 cars have downforce, and obviously the wider line would mean you have more downforce, and grip, to play with - so relative to the road car - the F1 car takes the wider corners much quicker - relatively speaking. Reason being, you're taking a wider corner at increased grip (downforce) while in a road car you're taking a wider corner at decreased grip (lift). I hope I'm not sounding convoluted here. So in theory - it might not be as beneficial in an F1 car.

Any takers?
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timbo
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Re: Rob Wilson - driver coach?

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raymondu999 wrote:Whether or not this translates to an F1 car I think is a bit of a dodgy business - F1 cars have downforce, and obviously the wider line would mean you have more downforce, and grip, to play with - so relative to the road car - the F1 car takes the wider corners much quicker - relatively speaking. Reason being, you're taking a wider corner at increased grip (downforce) while in a road car you're taking a wider corner at decreased grip (lift). I hope I'm not sounding convoluted here. So in theory - it might not be as beneficial in an F1 car.

Any takers?
Well, in low speed corners there's not so much downforce to play into things, so there might be a sense in what he says, but in mid- and definitely high speed corners the car aero attitude plays much bigger role. Exhaust blowing (not as important now as it was last year) certainly disturbs things.
But if you want to spot differences between drivers you have to look at low speed corners, anyway.

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raymondu999
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Yeah I know what you're saying, and I agree. I'm just not entirely sold on his shorten the corner thing yet in slow corners, because I haven't seen any "evidence" this is the case. All I have so far is Rob's words saying "it's faster"
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radosav
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"once circle" means ''one lap'', sorry about translation

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raymondu999
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timbo wrote:Well, in low speed corners there's not so much downforce to play into things, so there might be a sense in what he says, but in mid- and definitely high speed corners the car aero attitude plays much bigger role. Exhaust blowing (not as important now as it was last year) certainly disturbs things.
But if you want to spot differences between drivers you have to look at low speed corners, anyway.
Yep, possibly.

I'd think a car's toe in/out would also have a say in how much tyre scrub there is though.

A little something someone said to me:
Anonymous wrote:However, to keep the dialogue moving, there you go:

Summary: the late apex is precisely the way to "shorten the corner", as you call it. I think Mr. Wilson is saying precisely this. Notice how he talks of "smooth-firm". I couldn't agree more.

Notice three things:

In first place, there is no way to have four tyres flat, except in a few positions around the track (and that depends on the kind of curve that is BEHIND you). That's a certainty.

In second place, no optimal trajectory is symmetrical: most cars decelerate MUCH faster than they accelerate.
That's the reason why late apex is not critical unless you have serious engine power. It's also the reason why rookies can do fairly well with a regular apex trajectory. That's also the reason why most racing cars are heavier in the back.

In third place, there is a huge difference between the way you should take a curve in a circuit with curve transitions and in a circuit which has not curve transitions. I despair of transmitting the knowledge here.
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Pierce89
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raymondu999 wrote:I just had a sort of eureka moment. This "shorten the corner" business - what if it's true in road cars? A road car generates lift as it goes along - and the slower you're going, the less lift you'll have. Effectively, you have more "downforce" (ie less lift) and thus more grip at lower speeds - and this shortening of corners would mean that you're actually able to rotate the car with more grip in that slower speed - leading Mr. Wilson to say that on average it is quicker to shorten the corner, because the extra speed carried on a wide line isn't enough to make up for the better traction of a V-shaped corner.

Whether or not this translates to an F1 car I think is a bit of a dodgy business - F1 cars have downforce, and obviously the wider line would mean you have more downforce, and grip, to play with - so relative to the road car - the F1 car takes the wider corners much quicker - relatively speaking. Reason being, you're taking a wider corner at increased grip (downforce) while in a road car you're taking a wider corner at decreased grip (lift). I hope I'm not sounding convoluted here. So in theory - it might not be as beneficial in an F1 car.

Any takers?
In a slow corner, even in an F1 car, straightening the wheel quicker will help your traction available for longitudinal acceleration more than the downforce of 3Kmh(arbitrary number) more apex speed.
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Pierce89
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Pierce89 wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:I just had a sort of eureka moment. This "shorten the corner" business - what if it's true in road cars? A road car generates lift as it goes along - and the slower you're going, the less lift you'll have. Effectively, you have more "downforce" (ie less lift) and thus more grip at lower speeds - and this shortening of corners would mean that you're actually able to rotate the car with more grip in that slower speed - leading Mr. Wilson to say that on average it is quicker to shorten the corner, because the extra speed carried on a wide line isn't enough to make up for the better traction of a V-shaped corner.

Whether or not this translates to an F1 car I think is a bit of a dodgy business - F1 cars have downforce, and obviously the wider line would mean you have more downforce, and grip, to play with - so relative to the road car - the F1 car takes the wider corners much quicker - relatively speaking. Reason being, you're taking a wider corner at increased grip (downforce) while in a road car you're taking a wider corner at decreased grip (lift). I hope I'm not sounding convoluted here. So in theory - it might not be as beneficial in an F1 car.

Any takers?
In a slow corner, even in an F1 car, straightening the wheel quicker will help your traction available for longitudinal acceleration more than the extra downforce of 3Kmh(arbitrary number) more apex speed.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

bill shoe
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Interesting discussion. I learned a lot about road course vehicle dynamics and the fastest line from watching high-end electric RC road course cars. They have all wheel drive, and a single-ratio electric motor with flat torque that is strong enough to spin the tires if desired. As a first approximation they have equal acceleration in any direction-- accel, decel, cornering, combinations, etc. The max accel is strong, I'm guessing 1.5 or 2.0 G. This combination doesn't exist in many real cars and certainly does not exist for a real-size car on a proportional real-size track. So a high-end RC road racer on a proportional RC road course is a unique high-performance situation.

The quickest way around in theory and practice is to always take the inside constant radius around corners and join those together with straight tangents. There is a transient phase beween longitudinal and lateral acceleration, but the RC cars' natural frequencies in roll and pitch are very quick so those transients are barely noticeable. The line I described is the shortest possible line around the track.

In a real car the slower transitions from longitudinal to lateral are necessary due to the slower roll/pitch natural frequencies, not because the ideal track line requires it. Early or late apexes, wide vs tight lines, etc. all come about because the accel G's are not equal to the brake and cornering G's. Gear changes are large non-linearities that require further countermeasures away from the RC ideal. All real-car driving lines and cornering strategies come from the imperfections of the real-car.