Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Facts Only wrote:Oh dear! The IT department see all..........
You would guess it is not the smartest thing to make unauthorized access to confidential documents, on an intranet which logs absolutely everything, with your own laptop no less.
On the other hand, one has to wonder how he was able to access the files in the first place, given he was on "gardening" leave.
Neither is deleting files going to help. There is even freeware currently to retrieve deleted files. The only way to pretty much destroy the data, was to throw the hard drive in the magnetron.
turbof1 wrote:
Neither is deleting files going to help. There is even freeware currently to retrieve deleted files. The only way to pretty much destroy the data, was to throw the hard drive in the magnetron.
Hmmm this worries me. :-"
On topic....Do Ferrari bear any responsibility here? I'm pretty sure they've got their basis covered, but it seems the data this chap was purported to be thieving is rather specific. Hungarian GP data, and engine mileage and damage.
Could this have been requested I wonder....
That's pretty bad! How would they block a move to Ferrari until after 2016 though? Even if they prove he stole the stuff, wouldn't he need some sort of sport ban?
Knowledge transfer has always been a part of the "romance" of F1 and there has always been a fine line between stealing physical data, such as taking information on a USB stick, versus taking across knowledge using your own memory.
The last headline on the former was Mike Coughlan's taking data from Ferrari into Mclaren via email in 2006-2007. This is actually a criminal action. On the other side of the coin, there is barely any outcry when engineers constantly take across information using their memory. The latest high profile case of tranfering information using memory (I hope!) was Peter Prodromu disseminating his RedBull designs over at Mclaren in 2014.
There is always a trend in these things. The source of data transfer always starts from a top team. So with Mercedes dominating on track for two years, it was bound to happen...
As reported by the Bloomberg news agency, Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains is suing engineer Benjamin Hoyle, who intends to leave Mercedes for Ferrari at the end of the year.
Mercedes is suing a Ferrari-bound former employee for data theft.
According to a court filing released yesterday (Monday), Benjamin Hoyle is being sued by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains, which supplies the engines for the works team, Force India, Williams and Lotus, for allegedly searching for and then saving data from this year's Hungarian Grand Prix, ironically, a race that Ferrari won.
According to the filing, Hoyle’s "actions were calculated to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of trust" he has with Mercedes. "Mr. Hoyle and potentially Ferrari have gained an unlawful advantage."
The data is said to include files containing the code required to decrypt raw race data files.
On learning that Hoyle was to join Ferrari at the end of the year, having given notice in May, he was assigned to non-F1 duties, given a new email address and proprietary data was removed from his laptop.
However, according to Bloomberg: "Despite his reassignment, Hoyle was found looking at race reports and took confidential data."
He is alleged to have then deleted files in an attempt to conceal his wrongdoing."
"Legal action is underway involving Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains Ltd. and an employee," Mercedes said in a brief statement this morning. "The company has taken the appropriate legal steps to protect its intellectual property."
It is claimed Mercedes is seeking the return of all documents and information, payment of its legal fees, and wants to block Hoyle from joining Ferrari or any other F1 competitor until after the 2016 season.
In 2007, the sport was rocked by the Spygate scandal which saw McLaren eventually fined $100m after confidential technical information from Ferrari was passed to the Woking team.
Last edited by LookBackTime on 08 Dec 2015, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
This is the interesting bit that hasn't really been picked up on:
The data is said to include files containing the code required to decrypt raw race data files
Mercedes (I assume) and other teams must transmitting encrypted data from the car to the pits and back to Brixworth during every session. If Ferrari had the encryption code they would be able to intercept and see all of Mercedes car data live as well. Power, Fuel Consumption, Downforce, Drag, Suspension movements aand everything else would all be compromised.
If it ever turns out that Ferrari had requested the code then this will be very very serious.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver
Hate to suggest this but for Ferrari to have the balls to do perform this level of sporting espionage, they'll have learnt from past mistakes both by them and against them to avoid complicity. It'll be interesting to see how Mercedes can go about proving the data theft has influenced development... as suggested by PlatinumZealot, you can't prosecute someone for having an idea.
Hungary was race 10 of 19; I wonder when he was caught as they could easily change the encryption key the moment they knew.
I'm not an expert in IT at all, so my apologies if this sounds dumb: can you safe encrypted data to decrypt it a latter moment? If not, then Mercedes will probably limit the damage to changing the encryption. If so, Ferrari possibly has 2 seasons worth of telemetry data.
@Mr. Fahrenheit: It might be possible to find communication in the form of emails, telephone calls or other forms of digital communication. The guy tried to remove the data, so assuming also traces of communication, by deleting them and the filling up the disk with meaningless data in al attempt to fully overwrite the files. Autosport mentioned however several devices on which the data was stored on, and one can always contact the service provider to try to retrieve emails. These things do leave shadow files on servers.
If Mercedes can use legal ways to get a hold on emails and such, and if there was actually a request from Ferrari, they will find it.
turbof1 wrote:I'm not an expert in IT at all, so my apologies if this sounds dumb: can you safe encrypted data to decrypt it a latter moment?
Yep, you can., If it's encrypted, it will just look like gibberish, if you look at it in it's raw form.
turbof1 wrote:
These things do leave shadow files on servers.
The term your thinking of is log files, you would be amazed how many different types of log files exist. Just the other day, I was working with a coworker to pull entire emails out of a mail servers logs.
It'll just be the encryption key, thats all. I would assume they would normally change it anyway, but the fact remains what was done was wrong.
It's a difficult one for me...
Formula one is crying out for something drastic and ridiculous like this! This season was utterly boring, and as a spectator, this news is brilliant! I dont pay to watch F1 to care about inter-company politics and the way their management and legal departments like to enforce rules. I like F1 so more of this please!
Obviously they have some pretty damning evidence or it would not have gone this far.
The interesting thing will be did the boys in red play a part, and if so to what extent ?
Maybe the guy was just preparing to take some info with him, but if it can be proven that Ferrari already have the files they are in for a world of pain !
HPP claims after this date, and prior to September 24 and after employing expert forensic computer analysts, Hoyle removed hardcopy documents containing confidential F1 information.
It is alleged Hoyle also searched for and saved on a laptop confidential F1 information stored on HPP's servers that included: a race report from this year's Hungarian Grand Prix; mileage and damage data relating to HPP's F1 engines from this season up until September 14, and files containing the code to decrypt raw race data files.
It is further alleged Hoyle also saved files related to the compressor performance of HPP's F1 engines, along with encrypted raw data files containing very detailed data about engine performance used to produce race reports.
The information was also apparently saved on Hoyle's personal mobile phone, micro SD cards, a tablet and an external hard drive.
Hoyle is also believed to have uploaded a confidential F1 document to an external website, as well as "read, reviewed, looked at or otherwise gained access to confidential F1 information".
The compressor data, and the multiple forms of data storage used is pretty damning evidence.
