max wants to bring back overtaking

[rsfocus]

simple, ban refueling, bring back big slicks, only allow one pitstop for tyres but like now have to run two different compounds. But you don’t have to pit for tyres if you don’t want too. have single element front wings with a low nose. Two to three element rear wings, both front and rear wings must be small though. so big mechanical grip which will drop off during a race distance but the car will get lighter and faster as the fuel drops off. Easy!
One other thing too, gear levers! Bring back a gear lever on the side. Yes a chance of a driver blowing the engine up, but also a chance of him making a mistake so somebody has the chance to get by. With good rev limiters etc now you could stop damage from a missed gear

[mini696]

Been discussed many times before.

The current "use both types of tyres" is not a good thing for racing it has totally stripped any strategy from the teams.

[GianlucaZ19]

bring back big slicks,
have single element front wings with a low nose.
Two to three element rear wings,
both front and rear wings must be small though.
One other thing too, gear levers!

i.e. bring back the early 90's cars

[ds.raikkonen]

simple, ban refueling, bring back big slicks, only allow one pitstop for tyres but like now have to run two different compounds. But you don’t have to pit for tyres if you don’t want too. have single element front wings with a low nose. Two to three element rear wings, both front and rear wings must be small though. so big mechanical grip which will drop off during a race distance but the car will get lighter and faster as the fuel drops off. Easy!
One other thing too, gear levers! Bring back a gear lever on the side. Yes a chance of a driver blowing the engine up, but also a chance of him making a mistake so somebody has the chance to get by. With good rev limiters etc now you could stop damage from a missed gear

What youre saying basically takes F1 back to the stone ages, no changes for the tyre in a race means harder compounds, which ultimately lead to lower grip, which affects overtaking. The rules for 2008 are enough for a driver to get on with...to play hard ball

[Fan Solo]

Something does need to be looked at with regard to overtaking, personally I would like to see ground effect aero making a comeback, if only for the sparks flying

A return to slicks & much more limited aero on the actual body of the car should do the trick I recon.

FS

[enkidu]

I'd say go back to underfloor areo and reduce the wing sizes..... That way the air is alot smoother from the car in front enabling the car behind to get closer through the bends and sling shot the straights.

[modbaraban]

I'm afraid that the good intentions will harm F1 (again).

The best thing Max and others can do is to remove themselves from F1 and freeze the rules and let the teams realize their creativity...

[Ciro Pabón]

Who said overtaking is diminishing? Bring back overtaking from what epoch?

That sounds like an SOB (Supreme Overlord Bernard) playing with the championship results AGAIN.

It seems this man really need a good lover to make him busy, instead of his current "home appliance" (Mrs. Slavica).

Every time Mr. Ecclestone wants to pull another FOCA he claims he wants to improve overtaking. And of course, as this is something vague enough for everybody and his dog to have an opinion, then we spend another terabyte of storage on each and every server devoted to F1 in the Internerd.

You know what you need to get overtaking: equalize the cars, widen the track and pay drivers per overtake. It has worked wonders in other series, where you have more overtakes in an hour than you have in F1 during a year.

How do you accomplish overtakes easier in your car? With a huge engine? With new aerodynamics? C'mon, the easier way to overtake is using another lane! Look, ma, I discovered that water makes you wet!

Mention that and everybody and his dog starts to babble about pinnacles and to sing "We are the champions" or "We will rock you" or "Another one bites the dust". Yawn.

In fifteen days, give or take a few, he will claim that the only way to achieve this is throug night races, or changing Melbourne to another track, or moving from Fuji back to Suzuka, or whatever gives him a cool 15 million.

The fact is that overtaking is fairly regular through time. So, I say, let's say to the little giant of F-1 to go FOCA himself.

You can study this graph and you tell me what you see.



Do you know what I see? NOTHING.

There is no way to improve overtaking in F1, bar fixing the tracks, something Mr. Ecclestone will not agree with.

Yes, I know some people will not believe me... sigh. Do you know, by any chance, when did the (dry) race with more overtakings happened? Last year, appreciated blind men. Bahrain 2006 had 39 overtakings. Was it more exciting than... than what? Did you notice anything unusual at that particular race? I bet you didn't. I am all ears, anyway. What did you learn from that marvel of GP? If you agree with Mr. B, then you MUST have noticed.

Heck, even the TV producer could have noticed! How many overtakes did he show to you? A dozen, perhaps? If overtaking is so important, why nobody had come with the idea of showing all them in a little screen in a corner of the TV during the race? That would put more overtakes in the eyes of the public than any slick, triple wing or (please, Christ, refrain my tongue!) gear levers... (thank, Jesus, I owe you one).

Let me put it this way: you go and get the best engineers in the world and develop a race car. Then, I go and get 100 million dollars more than you to develop my car. Who do you bet on to win? Duhhhh....

Yes, I know perfectly nobody agrees with fixing the tracks. THAT would mean to invest money, not to take it away from some fat-pocket entrepreneur, dazzled by the Rainiero family and McLaren window panes at their technology center.

Live with it: in Formula One there are 17 overtakings per race per year since I have memory, give or take a few.

And, pleeze, by all means, dear fellow citizens, stop asking for "going back to the 80's" or "going back to the 90's" or the "50's" or whatever. Just tell me, lighthouses of knowledge: who do you prefer to treat you? A 2007 physician or a physician trained in 1980? Gimme a break....

Finally, if you take me seriously and start to debate my point of view, you really, really need to change your medication dose.

[checkered]

For once, I'm happy to disagree with a statement:

Yes, I know perfectly nobody agrees with fixing the tracks.

Because I do agree.

I can't even remember when I first advocated reconsidering the properties and layouts of racetracks to inspire a different approach to racecar design. Years and years ago anyway, though I can't remember being contradicted or flamed even once for putting such a thought forward. I can't even remember the response being something other than a silent indifference. That being said, it's of course understandable that at least on the surface of it it's simpler to tinker with car design. Seeing the rate of new venues added during the past few years I've been left wondering whether or not an opportunity to do something special was being lost.

And yes, some boards are regularly infested with "let's go back to (add the decade of your choosing)" sorta messages. Sometimes I've resorted to recommending some of the historic racing series and race car meets for such people, but of late have tried to adopt a more positive approach: Once or twice when someone has offered a solution to increasing overtaking that doesn't revert to copying prior designs, I've complemented the effort (especially in the light of "let's go back" style responses) while at the same time raising the question whether we actually want more and/or easier overtaking.

Sadly, sometimes these kinds of observations seem to act as conversation killers, too ... so I'm trying to adjust my approach still. Though I'm afraid that the "silver lining revisionists" content with reminiscing about '60's, '70's, '80's and so on actually have no interest in what actually could be beneficial to F1 any more nor do they believe anything can actually be done to improve the sport. Which, in itself is a good reason to not let such people overly influence or dictate where Formula One is headed.

[modbaraban]

Ciro,

Looking at the graphs I noticed that every attempt to change rules (and improve overtaking) showed the opposite result. Esp. the no-tyre-change rule.

I don't think there's a problem with overtakings at all. What value would be a football goal of if the score was like 79:65 like in basketball. I hope you got my point.

I remember the Turkey 2006 GP was pretty stunning because of lots of overtaking shown on TV.

For once, I'm happy to disagree with a statement:

Yes, I know perfectly nobody agrees with fixing the tracks.

Because I do agree.

Don't just stand there! Open your wallet!

[naknak_56]

Ciro does your graph show actual overtakes or recorded overtakes? ie one done in the pits?

As IMHO pit lane passes hardly count. I personally think that these days there is no real bonus to passing someone on the track you see all the front runners waiting till the pit stops then trying to have a faster in/ out laps. I think alot of the drivers have forgotten how to set someone up for a pass properly.

Taking away pit stops altogether and having a quailfing race on a saturday (that counts for a few points) and top 8 reversed for the full GP on sunday might inject some overtaking with a NO pitstop rule.

[modbaraban]

Taking away pit stops altogether and having a quailfing race on a saturday (that counts for a few points) and top 8 reversed for the full GP on sunday might inject some overtaking with a NO pitstop rule.

Why not decide the starting positions by means of a lottery

12-lap quali was the best cos I like to see who's the fastest man on track regardless the pit strategy and engine durability issues etc.

[naknak_56]

Yeah why not? how many memorable over takes can you remember? not many i would wager as there havent been many in the past 10 or so years.

They need to give an incentive to overtake as most drivers sit and play the percentages.

If you look at race series where there is no pitting is allowed there are many more incidents and much more overtaking period.

[Ciro Pabón]

Yes, the graph shows "actual overtakes", as fair as humans can, if you ask me.

Sorry, I was ranting to my heart content! It felt so good that I forgot the...

Credits for the graph (I've given them so many times that...):

Data compiled by the Brian Lawrence (God bless him). Graph made by me using the awesome and incredibly hard to find Excel.

Brian's Rulez are simple (and are not), which, for me, it's a strong clue that indicates they are fair:

I only count what I will call "genuine" passing manoeuvres, which means that I exclude:

a) any place changes made during pit stops
b) all lapping/unlapping manoeuvres
c) any changes during the first lap

Hopefully, a) & b) are obvious, c) is because although lap one is often the best opportunity to make up places, it is also not typical of the rest of the race, and so, for the purpose of comparing races with other races and seasons with other seasons, it is simpler to exclude lap one completely.

For the purposes of this analysis a pit stop encompasses the slowing down lap and the out lap, since any passes during those laps MIGHT be due to the stopper slowing down or speeding up.

Note: Passes are not counted in these stats UNLESS the gained position is held until the start/finish line is next crossed and so gets recorded onto the lap chart.

I try to ignore anything that isn't recorded in the lap chart, even if it was seen on TV - in this way I try to keep the numbers as consistent as possible.

[manchild]

His resignation would be a good step forward - one small step for man, one giant leap for manchild... umm... sorry, mankind... I mean formula 1!