F1 front uprights fixing - building Ferrari F1 2000 Car

[MyF12000]

Hi to all

Some years ago i started the building of my f1 car.
A Ferrari F12000 replica with a steel tube chassis, fiberglass body and motorcycle engine (see http://www.lamiaf12000.tk or http://web.infinito.it/utenti/m/misterjoe/index.html for pictures or info)

Now i'm changing many parts of this car with original f1 parts (front and rear wishbones and pushrods, front and rear uprights, gearbox, etc)

I bought front and rear uprights of spyker 2007 f1 car (front uprights was complete of upper steering/camber plate as in pictures).

I'am having a problem with the front uprights because i don't understand exactly how was really fixed in the original car.
I found many pictures but no one in which i see how are mounted (because in all the pictures there are the carbon brake duct that cover the view).

As i said the uprights should be spyker 2007 (but from many pictures that i saw, could be midland 2006 ......or jordan 2005 too).
They have the midland wheel nut but is possible to mount Jordan wheel nut too.
The gold brake bells in pictures were bought after, are jordan and are ok for this uprights.

well, the questions:

1) The front upright is mounted as in the first picture (with the upper plate, where is joined the steering rod, parallel to the ground....to the floorpan...black line) or is mounted as in the second picture (with the lower part/lower line of the upright parallel to the ground) ?




2) seeing these pictures, in both case, the blue line that joins the 2 holes where are fixed the wishbones (lower and upper) is not perpendicular to the ground but turns to the left (the upper hole where is attached the wishbone is more rear than the lower).
Is right in this way ?
Could be the steering plate wrong (not of this upright) ?


I saw another topic in this forum that speaks about the uprights (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12431&p=329290&hili ... lt#p329290) but i didn't found useful info.

Someone could help me ?
Someone has pictures of jordan/midland/spyker suspensions where to see exactly how the uprights are mounted or has info about?

many thanks to all for the help

I hope to be clear and Sorry for my imperfect english

Kind regards

MyF12000

Others pictures:

[gato azul]

1) The front upright is mounted as in the first picture (with the upper plate, where is joined the steering rod, parallel to the ground....to the floorpan...black line) or is mounted as in the second picture (with the lower part/lower line of the upright parallel to the ground) ?

2) seeing these pictures, in both case, the blue line that joins the 2 holes where are fixed the wishbones (lower and upper) is not perpendicular to the ground but turns to the left (the upper hole where is attached the wishbone is more rear than the lower).
Is right in this way ?
Could be the steering plate wrong (not of this upright) ?

1) the mounting position like in the second picture seems more logical/reasonable to me.
But the upright could be rotated even more backwards ( towards the left in your photo), may try to find photos where you can see the orientation/angle of the brake caliper, this will help you to get an idea how far the upright was rotated.
What you do, with this, is changing the Caster angle of the suspension. Keep in mind, that for your car, you may want a different caster then a F1 car. This will depend, if you use power steering or not for example. More caster will require more steering effort (in simple words), but it does many other things as well and is normally tuned in context of the whole suspension package of the car, and will depend from other factors considerations as well.

2.) Yes, that seems to be right. See my reply to post #1.
The "steering plate" seems to be o.k. to me, but I can't say for sure.
It would surprise me, if the only clamp it to the upright, as you do now. It's possible, but would be a very crude way to do it, and would make it very difficult to achieve repeatable changes in camber angle.
Therefore I proposed in the other thread, that there are maybe some inserts used in the slots, to fix the "steering plate" in well defined positions, and make it possible (easier) to make chamber changes in a repeatable way and in well defined increments.
You would need to know, what the lengths of the wishbones where on the original car, because it is possible( likely) that the top wishbone was shorter then the lower one, tilting the upright inwards (in more negative camber direction) as default.
It is highly unlikely (but not impossible), that the suspension was designed with 0° camber as a baseline. It's more likely that it was designed with something like 2-3° of negative camber, while the "steering plate" is in the middle of the slot.

If you want to understand more about which effects this changes have on the suspension, try to search for terms like "King Pin Inclination (KPI)", "Caster", "Caster Trail", "Caster Angle", Steering Axis Inclination" (SAI).
This will give you a idea, what this is all about.

Good luck

[gato azul]

Here you can see, the "Inserts" I was talking about, which seems to be missing from the parts you have.
(click right mouse "view image" for larger size)



some other photos of the Midland F1, which you may (maybe not) find useful - orientation/angle of the brake calipers etc.

[MyF12000]

Hi

thanks a lot for the info and for "to see the brake calipers angle to have an idea"....perfect. many thanks
About the inserts no problem.....i saw the other topic and the info about

I saw other pictures in Motorsport site and i think finally that the upright is Jordan ej15 2005 or start season Midland m16 2006.
I found this of the jordan ej15 and the upright seems exactly the same.


and in other site i found these




In the first picture the caliper seems slightly towards the rear....but i'm not sure.
In the others doesn't seem.....

However i will try to understand the caster to use.

If there are others info or ideas.....are welcome

myf12000

[GSpeedR]

I also strongly recommend that you research basic suspension geometry design principles before you begin fabrication of any parts. It is very easy to inadvertently design a suspension linkage that will kinematically bind; this is very dangerous and will cause failures once racing loads are applied. Some books that you might find helpful are: "Racecar Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken or "Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics" by Gillespie. If you are not comfortable reading this kind of literature then I would suggest hiring someone local who can help.

As for you questions, refer to this picture:



which I stole from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6453&start=15

As mentioned by gato azul, the mounting points seem to be quite typical (the upper ball joint moved rearward is termed 'positive caster' and is typical in order to gain negative camber with steer).

[MyF12000]

thanks a lot for the help
i try to build a correct suspension geometry for these uprights according to all the parameters.
Now i'm looking to know the correct toe rear and front (I saw other topics)
My objective however is not to use for racing but only use my f1 replica for fun (like i have done until now with the old parts).

[superflyte]

I have Renault R26 (2006) front and rear uprights for my project, and the inserts you need are commonly referred to as 'Camber Slugs'. I'm making my own (many sets at different off-sets) to vary the camber of the upright. My uprights don't have the camber plates at individual items, but are integral to the design itself. See link (with pics) to my previous question about this topic...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12431

The R26 uprights (the hubs, at least) were made by Pankl in the UK. However, they do look different to yours. Mine have more taper on the wheel mounting surface. I'd be willing to bet that they all have the same wheel stud / drive peg P.C.D. though! Which leads me to my next question...

Where did you source the brake disc bells from?

[MyF12000]

Hi
the brake bells are Jordan eJ14-ej15.

However i think they are different from the fitment of your upright.
In my Jordan uprights, the drive pegs are on the brake bells (there are 3 half holes in the hub to fit correctly the brake bell).

The wheel rims were BBS 18 holes, so different from OZ.

According to me, the drive pegs fitment of your upright seems more similar to BBS 2000/2002 12 holes than this jordan (see pictures).

ej15 parts


ej15 front hub


ej15 brake bell and hub


ej15 BBS wheel rims


Ferrari BBS F1 2000 wheel rims



I hope to be useful

[andylaurence]

Out of interest, what do those uprights weigh?

[superflyte]

I can't speak for the Jordan uprights, but the Renault R26 uprights are 2.9kgs each for the front upright (complete as in pic). The rears are 5.9kgs each (complete, including Drive shafts).

[MyF12000]

Hi
sorry for the delay

the weight is similar to the superflyte r26 uprights

Each Jordan front upright complete of wheel nut is 2,9Kg (4,9Kg with titanium brake bell and Brembo Carbon disc)

[andylaurence]

Guys, that's really useful information. It's nice to know if F1 equipment really is lighter or not.

[coaster]

I like that frame!

The curves look right, nice!