Water injected in to cylinders?

[lbr998]

I'm having an argument with a person that tells me that they inject water into the cylinder (F1 engines) to improve octane and keep the heat down I think he is insane, can somebody tell me who is in the right and if I am give me some pointers to shut his ass up

Google this and you will see the video that got this argument going. He claims that the injectors are spraying water and that the fuel is injected internally...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw

[m3_lover]

wasn't there a post about a 6 stroke engine using water for steam applications in the cylinder?

[Saribro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

Though F1 only allows 4-stroke, so you'd be mixing fuel and water, which is a nono.

[Ray]

So how the hell do they saty running in races like this years Japanese GP? Do they run really rich or do they lean the mixture out because of the cooling effect of the water? Seems to me they would have tremendous trouble running while ingesting that much water. Or do they ingest as much as I think? This has confused me for a while.

[flynfrog]

lots of 4 strokes of used water injection it cools the pistons increases compression ratio and can help decoke gunky valves.

but its illegal in F1

but alot of allied fighter planes used it in WWII

Ray have you ever poured water into a running engine. its pretty amazing how much they will take espicaly when it gets atomized

[walter]

don't forget that current f1 engines stay between 16,000 to 19,000 rpm for most of the race. So even at 200 mph the amount of water that goes in through the air inlet is spread throughout 8 cylinders that EACH go through the combustion cycle about 75 times per second. So the amount of water in the air in each cycle is nothing to be concerned about even with f1's tight parameters.

[DaveKillens]

Don't assume that all that rain and spray you see goes directly into the cylinders. Just like a road car, there are baffles and a method to separate most of the water from the air, and make sure the majority of the water is vented away, instead of directly into the cylinders.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

[donskar]

Yes, injecting water (in small amounts) increases power by slowing combustion. Remember, higher octane fuel burns more slowly - water has that effect on fuel.

[Carlos]

EDIT - Ibr998 - Thanks for introducing a very interesting thread and welcome to the forum.

Donskar- Thanks for the engineering insight into water injection which motivated my interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Dave some interesting sites on WW2 aero engines and general development - all mention water injection in some context
http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines ... g_dvmt.htm
http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhite.php
http://www.enginehistory.org/

M3_lover - You are right about that 6 stroke steam-Otto Engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

Chris - A concept you will love from Mother Earth News & a good example of both cost containment and what can be done on a kitchen table project. A water injection system using a single fuel injector nozzle, 2 squirt gun valves and an old smog pump. Forget the 1M>2M appeals!!! Just Do It!!!
Plus another site with a DIY ethic
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Ho ... ardry.aspx
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html

Two developed commercial application
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
http://www.enginerunup.com/

[Fridge13]

Just for formula 1 reference


5.11 Engine intake air:
5.11.1 Other than injection of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, any device, system, procedure, construction or design the purpose or effect of which is any decrease in the temperature of the engine intake air is forbidden.

[Belatti]

Check out this thread

viewtopic.php?t=2723&start=0

I´m sure that there was another thread somewhere in the forum where someone was confussed thinking that water was injected in f1 engines.

[williamssam]

In the video of the Renault engine it's fuel you can see being injected, not water. As far as I know water injection isn't used in F1, as least not these days. Does anyone know if the turbocharged F1 cars of the 80s used water injection?

[Iciano]

Moving slightly away from F1 to road cars, my Argentinian neighbour called over the other day to ask if I'd ever heard of mixing diesel and water in a diesel engine.
He heard that people had been doing this in Argentina but didn't know why.
I thought it was a bit weird, and the first thing that popped into my head was bent valves, so they must only be using a small amount of water (if at all) so as not to harm the engine.
Can anyone shed any light on this or was my neighbour dreaming?!

[Carlos]

Iciano - Interesting - Thanks for bringing water/diesel fuel mixtures to the forum, I had never heard of it before and it prompted me to do the research. Your neighbor is right ... although it isn't described in the literature as something to stir up in your driveway. In Germany they are testing Aquazole- a mixture of about 15% water and 85% diesel, the process is to combine micro droplets of water into the oil distillate. Although not Argentine ... in Australia it is claimed that a mixture of 40% water to 60% diesel is being used on a semi- experimental basis.

The suggested benefit of a water/diesel mixture is reduced nitric oxide and particulate emissions... I would imagine that the 'octane' rating and combustion characteristics would also differ ... one of our members, donskar, remarked on this. The idea made me quite curious, so I went through some material and found a specification sheet for #2 Diesel fuel with tables from a variety of countries and discovered that generally , conventional diesel can be up to (approx?) 11% water. It's interesting to have a subject rather than a concept introduced to the forum, that is to say, a developing technological process or modification. Thanks for piquing curiosity. I've included links (3) in descending order reference - derived from my informal comments.

EDIT - It's probably more economical to formulate, (although adding a step to process) and at retail.

http://www.apta.com/services/intnatl/in ... uazole.cfm
http://pesn.com/2007/11/07/9500457_Bios ... Challenge/

ATTENTION http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_88759244 ATTENTION

ATTENTION - Deleted Subjective narrative.
EDIT Some Strange ScienceOddities http://www.butlerlabs.com/patentlinks.h ... ellPatents

[Iciano]

Thanks a million Carlos for shedding some light on this subject!! Much apreciated =)
Its quite interesting stuff, how the water droplets help reduce the emissions and dont reduce the power TOO much. You can work with a 10% power drop kinda thing!
Im looking for a subject for my thesis next year. I wanted to do something on emissions maybe, and improving a cars efficiency without harming power outputs(too much) this could be a starting point.