2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Reca
Reca
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Location: Monza, Italy

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Additionally to already mentioned fact that the 7th gear is often picked a bit shorter than would be optimal for peak speed as trade off for laptime (and in particular shorter than what would be required to fully exploit DRS in order to not be too penalizing when DRS can't be used), there's to consider also that current engines happen to have the peak power very close to rpm limiter, which only makes things worse forcing teams to gear also the 7th to get close to rpm limiter (hence allowing little/no room to improve peak speed while slipstreaming)

That's a consequence of the limiter having been introduced as afterthought on engines designed originally to rev quite a bit higher than 18k and then allowing only small retuning (but without changing basic geometry) during the freeze. When you have an engine designed to rev up to 19.5k or more, and meant to spent most of its WOT time in the uppermost 2-2.5k rpm, limiting to 18k means disallowing access to most of the rpm range it was designed to use, so power near the limiter is still climbing quite steeply, being far away from where the peak power originally was (roughly 500-600rpm under peak rpm, that for most was around 19.5k-19.7k, notable exceptions being Ferrari, lowest revving at max 19k for races and few hundreds more in qual, and Mercedes + Cosworth, both approaching 20k in qual).


FWIW this is a collection of the total gear ratios (expressed as speed [km/h] @ 18k rpm) used by Vettel (plus Spain data from Webber) since 2011:
Image
Image

Consider that these come from looking at the engine rpm drop in upshift (engine rpm extracted from engine sound) and are obviously subjected to error, especially in the shortest gears (where engine rpm variation is quicker hence precision is limited) so when the difference between two ratios is of just couple of km/h, you can safely take it as the ratio is actually the same (as probably is first gear in most of cases). Obviously when there's no indication of first gear it's because it's not used during the lap in that track.

As everybody should know then, Red Bull traditional tendency is to gear towards the short side, so maybe these aren't really representative of the average car, but it's the most complete set of data I have for same driver/car (the onboard laps more likely posted on youtube are for pole position, and Vettel had a few recently...) so I went for it still.


As for next year selection I share marcush's opinion, not big issue, with 8 gears available it shouldn't be difficult to cover all needs, it would be possible with current engines, let alone with next year's that should have a more favorable power delivery.
For instance, if you look at the data and compare Monza with Monaco, you'll see that the first two gears are basically identical, while 6-7 of Monaco are quite close to 5-6 of Monza.
With 8 gears having something that works for both tracks is far from difficult, just take Monaco's ratios, add as 8th the 7th of Monza and it's done... the problem is if anything use in other tracks these extremes as you'll end up having a 7th that is too short and an 8th that is too long, so in reality a more useful starting point could be probably based on something like Bahrain ratios for 1->7 + Monza's 7th as 8th, and if it comes a bit too long for Monaco, who cares, so be it, it's one race out of 20.

Obviously teams will easily find the solution via optimization from lap simulations etc. compared with other stuff they have to optimize that's barely worth mentioning.
Last edited by Reca on 19 Sep 2013, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.

rjsa
rjsa
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I guess it will be a flat torque curve up to 10.5K and a flat poer curve from there on.

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
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Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Reca wrote:Additionally to already mentioned fact that the 7th gear is often picked a bit shorter than would be optimal for peak speed as trade off for laptime (and in particular shorter than what would be required to fully exploit DRS in order to not be too penalizing when DRS can't be used), there's to consider also that current engines happen to have the peak power very close to rpm limiter, which only makes things worse forcing teams to gear also the 7th to get close to rpm limiter (hence allowing little/no room to improve peak speed while slipstreaming)

That's a consequence of the limiter having been introduced as afterthought on engines designed originally to rev quite a bit higher than 18k and then allowing only small retuning (but without changing basic geometry) during the freeze. When you have an engine designed to rev up to 19.5k or more, and meant to spent most of its WOT time in the uppermost 2-2.5k rpm, limiting to 18k means disallowing access to most of the rpm range it was designed to use, so power near the limiter is still climbing quite steeply, being far away from where the peak power originally was (roughly 500-600rpm under peak rpm, that for most was around 19.5k-19.7k, notable exceptions being Ferrari, lowest revving at max 19k for races and few hundreds more in qual, and Mercedes + Cosworth, both approaching 20k in qual).


FWIW this is a collection of the total gear ratios (expressed as speed [km/h] @ 18k rpm) used by Vettel (plus Spain data from Webber) since 2011:
http://i.imgur.com/2g7Mq4T.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DZBgEiY.jpg

Consider that these come from looking at the engine rpm drop in upshift (engine rpm extracted from engine sound) and are obviously subjected to error, especially in the shortest gears (where engine rpm variation is quicker hence precision is limited) so when the difference between two ratios is of just couple of km/h, you can safely take it as the ratio is actually the same (as probably is first gear in most of cases). Obviously when there's no indication of first gear it's because it's not used during the lap in that track.

As everybody should know then, Red Bull traditional tendency is to gear towards the short side, so maybe these aren't really representative of the average car, but it's the most complete set of data I have for same driver/car (the onboard laps more likely posted on youtube are for pole position, and Vettel had a few recently...) so I went for it still.


As for next year selection I share marcush's opinion, not big issue, with 8 gears available it shouldn't be difficult to cover all needs, it would be possible with current engines, let alone with next year's that should have a more favorable power delivery.
For instance, if you look at the data and compare Monza with Monaco, you'll see that the first two gears are basically identical, while 6-7 of Monaco are quite close to 5-6 of Monza.
With 8 gears having something that works for both tracks is far from difficult, just take Monaco's ratios, add as 8th the 7th of Monza and it's done... the problem is if anything use in other tracks these extremes as you'll end up having a 7th that is too short and an 8th that is too long, so in reality a more useful starting point could be probably based on something like Bahrain ratios for 1->7 + Monza's 7th as 8th, and if it comes a bit too long for Monaco, who cares, so be it, it's one race out of 20.

Obviously teams will easily find the solution via optimization from lap simulations etc. compared with other stuff they have to optimize that's barely worth mentioning.
I'm not necessarily saying it'll be much of an engineering issue, just that we'll have far less of cars not being able to overtake because they'll hit the limiter. It can be very frustrating when you have a faster car stuck behind a slower one that has a longer seventh gear.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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rjsa wrote:I guess it will be a flat torque curve up to 10.5K and a flat poer curve from there on.
Ringo made a very nice graph before, but I keep forgetting where it was, somewhere in the beginning of this thread?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Here is one from my power sheet. The ICE is right at 600hp, the 160hp is added to that, represented by the ES curve. It is shaped as such because of the 200NM restriction. The recovery curve is an estimated 7%. That will float between the ES and ICE curve depending on how much comes from the turbo compounding. It doesn't affect overall total power.

Image
Honda!

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:It's not a flat torque curve marcush, but a flat power curve from 10500 to 15000 rpm, which is what really matters.
oops :oops:

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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marcush. wrote:I don´t see the reason for your excitement.You got more gears mandatory and they have to cover the whole range Monaco to Monza .Add to this a powertrain with a very flat Torque curve and the whole challenge is ?
You have to play it save for the overall gearing in Monza determining your trap speed capability there and you need a first gear capable of negotiating the very slow stuff of monaco (Loews) and a standing start /pitlane getaway with 8 gears to spread the range ....Nothing fancy there .Maybe it does make sense to tweak a gear for certain corners in the season but
I doubt this really is a differentiator.
Having said this I think it´s the other way round:the powertrain is so flexible gearing is a non issue and the spread available will allow the teams to short shift and cruise at low revs at every possible opportunity(still you need the power to overcome your drag factors..).
Rob White did mention about how Monaco will never use 8th gear, and Monza will never use 1st gear.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

timbo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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GitanesBlondes wrote:and Monza will never use 1st gear.
Which is strange, as the first corner is quite slow. I guess we'll just very rarely see 1st gear at all.

timbo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:It's not a flat torque curve marcush, but a flat power curve from 10500 to 15000 rpm, which is what really matters.
Is it really flat? The friction losses build up, but just how fast? I guess you should know x?

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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timbo wrote:
xpensive wrote:It's not a flat torque curve marcush, but a flat power curve from 10500 to 15000 rpm, which is what really matters.
Is it really flat? The friction losses build up, but just how fast? I guess you should know x?
You are correct of course, viscous losses increase with the square of the speed, why it should be possible to theoretically
estimate the difference in friction between 10500 and 15000, a factor of 2.0, if you knew what value to begin with?
Last edited by xpensive on 20 Sep 2013, 07:03, edited 1 time in total.
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timbo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
timbo wrote:
xpensive wrote:It's not a flat torque curve marcush, but a flat power curve from 10500 to 15000 rpm, which is what really matters.
Is it really flat? The friction losses build up, but just how fast? I guess you should know x?
You are correct of course, viscous losses increase with the square of the speed, why it should be possible to theoretically estimate the difference between 10500 and 15000, a factor of 2.0, if you knew what value to begin with?
heh, it's the trick.
Maybe we can estimate a friction losses of current engines from stated efficiencies?
Google search reveals this
http://www.ricardo.com/Documents/Downlo ... ngines.pdf
Don't have time to check ATM, maybe there's something there?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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even at 15000 rpm these engines will be over 85% mechanically efficient and 90% at 10500
being of small displacement and without the extreme b:s ratio and consequent frictional area of the current engines
(aircraft piston engines were at least 91% mechanically (friction) efficient at normal quite high power settings, as their
supercharging power is counted seperately and pumping 'losses' are similarly zero or favourable, this is a valid comparison)

so the increase in friction with rpm is largely balanced by the reduction in supercharging work (boost) with rpm
the real issue is the fall of in-cylinder thermodynamic conditions with falling boost as rpm exceeds 10500
this suggests minimal rpm range over 10500 (you don't design to need continuous knock sensor retard at 10500)
loss of in-cylinder efficiency over 10500 can be reduced by controlling turbine recovery/load for significant -delta P,even dilution
more importantly this will reduce pressure loss in blowdown and so increase efficiency outside the cylinder
so under these fixed-fuelling rules recovery can apparently be increased more than any corresponding decrease in crankshaft power
ie combined power will not fall over 10500, it might well rise
but I still think they won't run any greater rpm over 10500 than is forced by the gear rules
the gearbox is there to be used
those rules say to me 10500-12300 is the aim, some circuits/situations might need a bit more

btw I suggested these engines would have one exhaust manifold slightly longer than the other to give evenly-spaced delivery of the exhaust 'pulses' to the turbine, the recent photos seem to confirm this ??
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 20 Sep 2013, 20:47, edited 4 times in total.

tok-tokkie
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Will not the fixed 8 gear ratios + increased recovered energy storage + 10500rpm - 15000rpm flat power curve not make overtaking much more likely next season? The following driver will not have the rev limiter ceiling except at Monza. Both the pursuer & the pursued will have the same options but the initiative lies with the pursuer. Can play out over many laps.

timbo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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tok-tokkie wrote:Will not the fixed 8 gear ratios + increased recovered energy storage + 10500rpm - 15000rpm flat power curve not make overtaking much more likely next season? The following driver will not have the rev limiter ceiling except at Monza. Both the pursuer & the pursued will have the same options but the initiative lies with the pursuer. Can play out over many laps.
Already raised the same question. It also may change the aero philosophy as well.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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timbo wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:and Monza will never use 1st gear.
Which is strange, as the first corner is quite slow. I guess we'll just very rarely see 1st gear at all.
Perhaps the teams will be gearing first to be shorter than it currently is?
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet