2014 Engine Homolgation

[Cam]

Mod: This was split from the F1 is too slow thread http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... &start=450
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To be clear, I have no concerns with one team completely dominating. Good for them and for shame for those teams who can't step up. The issue is when one team dominates and all other teams hands are tied. Which is what we have now. Also, it's bad for marketing. It says "Ferrari build a $hit motor, see, they can't match Mercedes". Of course this is false. But we'll never know because any flaws cannot be fixed.

F1, the constructors" series, with no constructing.

[FoxHound]

To be clear, I have no concerns with one team completely dominating. Good for them and for shame for those teams who can't step up. The issue is when one team dominates and all other teams hands are tied. Which is what we have now. Also, it's bad for marketing. It says "Ferrari build a $hit motor, see, they can't match Mercedes". Of course this is false. But we'll never know because any flaws cannot be fixed.

F1, the constructors" series, with no constructing.

You get it wrong, you pay the price. High stakes, that is F1.

You do also realise there is alot a team can do in season to get more out of the engine, right?
Software, fuel and even hardware changes are still possible.
Here is a link that will help you, be warned it's Autosport so if you are low on free views just take my word for it.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113797

[Cam]

You do also realise there is alot a team can do in season to get more out of the engine, right?...Here is a link that will help you...

There's no need to be condescending. I understand F1 (as far as any long term fan does). What I offer is my opinion, as a fan on what is wrong as I see it. Take it or leave it.

And yeah, I don't need Autosport to "tell me" how to love F1. I'll use my own free thinking - thank you.

I am however open to being convinced, if a great argument is put forward. Close mindedness helps no one.

You get it wrong, you pay the price. High stakes, that is F1.

Well, again, IMO, no. F1 get's it wrong by forgetting it's roots - it's heritage. Get the initial package wrong, sure, the teams fault, can't agree more on that, but when the engine (in this case) is frozen, it's a pretty hollow victory to beat a bunch of hobbled competitors. Ferrari state their engine is much heavier - no amount of fuel tweaks or engine maps is fixing that. They need to go back and start again - but they can't..... Hooray for competition.

You are welcome to love the current F1, and I am jealous, because I can't. You have all you need from the sport. Kudos, enjoy the shallow veneer (mutton dressed as lamb, I call it). At least allow us who are un-happy and feel we deserve more from this sport, to discuss why we feel this way, while offering solutions - at least that's better than just whinging.

[FrukostScones]

You do also realise there is alot a team can do in season to get more out of the engine, right?...Here is a link that will help you...

There's no need to be condescending. I understand F1 (as far as any long term fan does). What I offer is my opinion, as a fan on what is wrong as I see it. Take it or leave it.

And yeah, I don't need Autosport to "tell me" how to love F1. I'll use my own free thinking - thank you.

I am however open to being convinced, if a great argument is put forward. Close mindedness helps no one

.....

FoxHound just said that your whining about the engines beeing frozen and that no gains can me made are incorrect.
But apperently that doesn't interest you because you use your "free thinking" aka denial?

[Richard]

The issue is that Merc might have an inherent conceptual advantage and homolgation could prohibit Ferrari and Renault from catching up.

I can see how homolgation works in a steady state environment because it stops an arms race with tiny diminishing returns. However, it fails when it results in teams having a one shot gamble with new regs. One could say that preventing Ferrari and Renault from copying Merc's split turbo is like preventing teams from copying the DDD back in 2009.

As for software tweaks, don't forget Merc are able to tweak their software just as much as Ferrari & Renault. Admittedly the principles of diminishing returns will mean teams a long way from optimum will make the biggest % gains, while Merc might make smaller gains because they are already close to optimum. So the gains might look big but they're try to catch a target that is moving away.

So I'd agree with Cam that there is a danger that Merc's conceptual advantage might be insurmountable due to homolgation and the lauded software updates might end up as no more than window dressing. I suspect he might be right, but hope he's wrong.

[turbof1]

From what I get, the manufacturers are infact allowed to make updates. It seems the FIA and the engine providers have a hidden deal with eachother. We often hear Renault bringing updates, and not just software ones. So even though the rules speak against it, there is some leaway.

[Holm86]

From what I get, the manufacturers are infact allowed to make updates. It seems the FIA and the engine providers have a hidden deal with eachother. We often hear Renault bringing updates, and not just software ones. So even though the rules speak against it, there is some leaway.

Reliability updates are allowed. Much of Renaults problems was due to reliability. They were now able to run their engines at full power. Now with their reliability updates they come closer and closer.

[Juzh]

From what I get, the manufacturers are infact allowed to make updates. It seems the FIA and the engine providers have a hidden deal with eachother. We often hear Renault bringing updates, and not just software ones. So even though the rules speak against it, there is some leaway.

Yes, this has been known for some time. Engine manufacturers allow each other so called "reliability" upgrades, but with the added reliability there's always a performance benefit in the background. They allow this because they know they might need the same leeway sometime in the future.
However... you can be 100% certain there is no way merc will allow renault or ferrari major PU restructure such as split turbo and mgu placement.

Much of Renaults problems was due to reliability. They were now able to run their engines at full power. Now with their reliability updates they come closer and closer.

Theoretical renault peak capacity will ultimately still be miles off mercedes (and ferrari to a lesser extent). Not to mention driveability. Especially if what we saw in barcelona was indeed max power. In 1st lap Sutil comfortably outdragged vettel down the slope into T6 despite vettel having much better exit out of T5.

[FrukostScones]

From what I get, the manufacturers are infact allowed to make updates. It seems the FIA and the engine providers have a hidden deal with eachother. We often hear Renault bringing updates, and not just software ones. So even though the rules speak against it, there is some leaway.

Reliability updates are allowed. Much of Renaults problems was due to reliability. They were now able to run their engines at full power. Now with their reliability updates they come closer and closer.

and as Renault homologated their most powerful version... they will gain.
(and they already made and maybe will do more hardware updates).

But I think Cam was generally protesting "engine freeze" or "freeze" (whatever he meant) with his (strange?) arguments.
I think he thinks that is has no place in F1 and generally F1 should be a free market-approach with "real" competition... (but real competion also needs a "cap" somewhere, otherwise $ always wins)
In 2015 (limited) engine development allowed as far as I remember, well lets see what Merc will do then...

btw. I think in 2014 you can really see the cars accelerating, those things are fast and def. faster in a straight line then those old 2.4 V8, that they don't corner as fast as the old cars is not nice, but hey it is the first year of new regs and I think they will gain some DF over the years... if not it is still fine racing (for me) that we see.
also I like sliding cars and drivers making errors, it is much more exciting than those old 2.4 V8 things on rails.

[bonjon1979]

The issue is that Merc might have an inherent conceptual advantage and homolgation could prohibit Ferrari and Renault from catching up.

I can see how homolgation works in a steady state environment because it stops an arms race with tiny diminishing returns. However, it fails when it results in teams having a one shot gamble with new regs. One could say that preventing Ferrari and Renault from copying Merc's split turbo is like preventing teams from copying the DDD back in 2009.

As for software tweaks, don't forget Merc are able to tweak their software just as much as Ferrari & Renault. Admittedly the principles of diminishing returns will mean teams a long way from optimum will make the biggest % gains, while Merc might make smaller gains because they are already close to optimum. So the gains might look big but they're try to catch a target that is moving away.

So I'd agree with Cam that there is a danger that Merc's conceptual advantage might be insurmountable due to homolgation and the lauded software updates might end up as no more than window dressing. I suspect he might be right, but hope he's wrong.

They can change 95% of the engine at the end of the year. This season they wouldn't be able to make fundamental conceptual changes like splitting the turbo. It's too big a job and the cars are designed around the concept of the engine, the cooling etc would need to be completely rethought which would probably mean a completely different aero concept. The freeze is therefore something of a moot point. You couldn't just strap the merc engine into the red bull, it would need to be completely rethought.

[Juzh]

btw. I think in 2014 you can really see the cars accelerating, those things are fast and def. faster in a straight line then those old 2.4 V8, that they don't corner as fast as the old cars is not nice, but hey it is the first year of new regs and I think they will gain some DF over the years... if not it is still fine racing (for me) that we see.
also I like sliding cars and drivers making errors, it is much more exciting than those old 2.4 V8 things on rails.

2014 cars are the same speed as V8s up to 280 (in merc case, renaults are slower). After that they are faster cuz of aero loss and intentional ban on high drag inducing elements. As a result now we have GP2 rivalling F1. Such an achievement indeed.
V6 turbo itself has very little to do with higher top speeds. If you trimmed 2013 V8 ferrari to current aero regs it would blow mercs to smithereens in a drag race.

[bhall]

[...]
In 2015 (limited) engine development allowed as far as I remember, well lets see what Merc will do then...
[...]

The PU homologation rules make very little sense to me. They were devised ostensibly to reduce costs, yet you can rest assured the engine shops in Brixworth, Maranello, and Viry-Châtillon are running at full-tilt designing next year's PUs.

Exactly how does that save money?

In any case, below are the allowed changes for next year. 92% of the PU can be modified, and only three areas are completely off-limits.

EDIT: I should rephrase that last bit. While 92% of the PU is available for modification, the three blacked-out areas notwithstanding, manufacturers can only modify a number of components whose weighted values total 32 points. That accounts for roughly 48% of the PU.

[Richard]

Forgive my ignorance, how many systems would need to be redesigned if Renault or Ferrari want to copy Merc's split turbo in 2015?

Worryingly the "Air valve system" item can't be changed and the notes say it includes the compressor.

The pressure charging system totals 6 points, while the MGU-H is 5 points. I guess the cylinder head and inlets will need repackaging to squeeze in the shaft between the two parts of the turbo, that'll be another bunch of points. They'll also need to realign the ancillaries drive which is another 3 points ... etc etc

I must confess I don't know enough about turbo packaging to know which bits on the points table relate to things that would need to change.

I'm thinking this should be split into a separate topic?

[bhall]

I think "air valve system" refers to the pneumatic valvetrain.

EDIT: It should also be said that variable intake trumpets are allowed next year.

I don't know if this warrants another topic or not, but these rules have definitely had a massive impact on the quality and speed of the racing we've seen this year. I think it's altogether senseless when you add it all up.

[Richard]

doh - silly me.