Question about the cylinder angle.

[RH1300S]

I don't believe the engine actually ever got to a race! AFIK, it failed to qualify on every attempt and often didn't complete the installation lap.

It was the Life W12 engine.

Anyone heard an H16 running? Amazing sound..............

[RH1300S]

The project failed but I remember seeing photo of the car and engine including first experiments that guy did with W engine on Renault 8.

R8!!! That's 'king nuts.............The R8 has the same basic mechanicals as the Alpine A110 (other way 'round really ) - shall we say the A110 is insanely happy to throttle steer with 120bhp

[GuestAgain]

Reca wrote:
For some reasons I’m not sure I appreciate the drug approach... although I know a few structural engineers who would very happily adopt it... anyway, compared with a V10 with similar characteristics (bore/stroke etc), the W12 has the advantages of more cylinders (hence more power, less friction etc) still being shorter. In term of vibrations, although it’s worse than a V12 isn’t as bad as a V10 or a V8.

Why would a W12 have less friction than a V10 with similar characteristics? Doesnt it have more moving parts (for instance multiple c-shafts and more cylinders)?

Mcdenife

[manchild]

I don't believe the engine actually ever got to a race! AFIK, it failed to qualify on every attempt and often didn't complete the installation lap.

It was the Life W12 engine.

Anyone heard an H16 running? Amazing sound..............

I also think it never got to a race that is why I wrote that project failed

Are you sure the engine name was Life? I have something in my head telling me that engine name was something beginning with "D" or "B"... The last name of this guy... It was a long time ago I can't remember

[manchild]

The project failed but I remember seeing photo of the car and engine including first experiments that guy did with W engine on Renault 8.

R8!!! That's 'king nuts.............The R8 has the same basic mechanicals as the Alpine A110 (other way 'round really ) - shall we say the A110 is insanely happy to throttle steer with 120bhp

You've probably misunderstood me - that guy made W engine and fitted it in R8.

[West]

Life made a car w/ a W12 engine in hopes of attracting sponsors w/ an unusual engine configuration, should it work, and we all know what happend to Life after that.

The last name of the owner of the team was Vida, I believe; hence the team name.

[manchild]

Found it!

This constructor I was mentioning was Guy Negré. Moteurs Guy Negré built engines by this design. The MGN W12 was bench-tested in 1988 and also tested in the back of an old AGS JH22 in 1989. This was as close as this engine ever came to Formula One. It was later briefly used in a Norma M6 sportscar. Life also had W engine but it wasn’t the one built by Moteurs Guy Negré and it was presented later (historically).

[manchild]

Anyone heard an H16 running? Amazing sound..............

If your thinking on this sound http://gpl.krej.cz/mp3.html that wasn't the came engine as the one in riff_raff's post. BRM H16 was normally aspirated while BRM V16 was supercharged 1.5L.

http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/brmcars.htm

[DaveKillens]

After looking at the wonderful pictures of the MGN W12, I started to wonder about the crankshaft, and it's configuration. It's a nice, tidy package (probably one of the prime reasons for it's construction), so it's difficult imagining anything but a crankshaft with just four throws, three rods on each throw. Designing such a short crankshaft with twelve individual throws seems unrealistic. I haven't done the hard math, but it appears primary vibrations would be controlled. But secondary vibrations may be an issue. As well, each rod end on the crankshaft may have to be designed with less than optimal width.
But it sure is a cool way to package twelve cylinders in such a short package.

[RH1300S]

Anyone heard an H16 running? Amazing sound..............

If your thinking on this sound http://gpl.krej.cz/mp3.html that wasn't the came engine as the one in riff_raff's post. BRM H16 was normally aspirated while BRM V16 was supercharged 1.5L.

http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinson/brmcars.htm

I'll confess, I WAS thinking of the V16 when I posted. Even so, the H16 still sounds amazing

Great pics, thanks - I was unaware of this particular W12 engine

[riff_raff]

As a race fan, the noise a race engine makes is very important- it's a huge part of the experience of seeing a race live!

Of all the types of racing I've seen live, top fuel drag racing provides the greatest tactile sensation. As the cars go by at over 300 mph, you can feel the heat from the exhaust (at 100 feet away) and your eyeballs literally rattle about in your skull!

As far as F1 is concerned, most engines for the last 20 years have had acoustically pleasing header designs. Whether they're V6 turbo's or N/A V8, V10 or V12's, they had even firing in each cylinder bank/header, so they sounded good. The only race engines that sound flat are NASCAR V8's (with a cruciform crank) or Superbike 45 deg V-twin Harley's and 90 deg V-twin Ducati's.

Also, remember when the IRL started, they used N/A 90 deg V8's. The engines sounded rather "un-race-like", so two years later they switched to a 180 deg (flat) crank configuration, to make the engines sound more "race-like".

As for the W12 engine proponent, Mr. Guy Negre, he is currently pimping for a company that is developing an "emission free" commuter car that runs on compressed air! http://www.theaircar.com/aboutmdi.html

Compressed air....Hydrogen fuel cell....Perpetual motion.....What's the difference? All of these concepts ignore the basic laws of economics, chemistry and physics. Is Mr. Negre any worse than Honda, GM or Toyota and their fuel cell B.S.?

I'll get off of my soap box now.......

[Reca]

Riff_raff : obviously the H16 is in my “crazy designs” chart, although I’ve to say that I do prefer the W12. Unfortunately I never had the chance to see and hear the H16 live, I was still in my parents’ dreams (should I say nightmares ?) when it was racing.

As for engine sounds, pretty much all the race engines I heard at the track are quite pleasant, the Ducati L-twin (known in Italy as “pompone”) is a matter of personal preference, some love it, some hate it, I’m definitively in the first group.

The worst engine sound I heard at the track has probably to be the one of the F.Renault V6, I was at the race a couple of years ago but I left after few laps for no other reason than the sound, 20 or so lawnmowers running on the track aren’t very exciting. I should say that it was 5 pm and the same day I did see also other races, including FIA GT so maybe the comparison increased my dislike... FIA GT sound great, also because many of them are V12 and certainly they do scream... these are probably the only cars, beside F1, that you can hear distinguishingly from the centre of Monza (about 2.5-3 km from the track). Most of the other engines’ sounds are “smoothed” by the trees of the park and then town noises do cover the rest, F1 and FIA GT on the contrary do want you to know they are there and then it’s hard to ignore the call...

Why would a W12 have less friction than a V10 with similar characteristics? Doesnt it have more moving parts (for instance multiple c-shafts and more cylinders)?

To make a long story short the friction losses in high revving engine depend mainly by the velocity of “crawling” (right term ?? I found it on the dictionary but I don’t know if it’s the right English term) between the parts and by the inertial loads. With more cylinders you have very likely smaller hence lighter pistons (smaller pins, lighter valves etc etc), all the parts have to complete a shorter path and all the parts are subjected to lower accelerations.

[...] it's difficult imagining anything but a crankshaft with just four throws, three rods on each throw [...]But it sure is a cool way to package twelve cylinders in such a short package.

To avoid the three rods per throw, in the Life W12 the con rods of the lateral cylinders weren’t connected directly to the crankshaft but to the con rod of the central cylinder, a solutions seen also on some aeronautical engines.
As for the length, according to the data I have the Life W12 was 530 mm long with a 85 mm bore, the same year a Ferrari V12 was 660 mm (bore = 84) an Honda V10 620 mm (91) and a Ford V8 595 mm (96). Obviously the W12 was also the widest, 704 mm compared with the 550-600 mm of the other V engines.

[DaveKillens]

Interesting observation, and I should have remembered, since I used to work on those very types of engines, aircraft radial engines.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/radial-engine2.htm
That would explain some packaging issues, but those master rods would be very massive for a racing application.
For me, one of the most inane racing engine sounds is the classic (and incredibly successful) Porshe flat six. Now that was a sound that failed to raise any excitement in me.
There are so many beautiful engines that make glorious sounds. Personally, any Ferrari V-12 for cars, and strangely, for motorcycles, the BSA Triple of the late 60's and early 70's. That 750 cc three cylinder going into a three-into-one megaphone sounded like music to my ears.

[manchild]

What about old 4 cyl. BMW M3 DTM?

[riff_raff]

Reca,

The noise you hear from an engine is mostly due to its exhaust. And an engine with even exhaust intervals always sounds most pleasant (ie. a 60deg V6, a 90deg V8 with a 180deg crank, a 72 degV10 or a 60deg V12).

I was just watching the GP bike qualifying at Laguna Seca, the 4-stroke V4's sounded odd. The only explanation I could think of is that they were firing 2 of the 4 cylinders simultaneously. Thus making it sound like a V-twin.

Ultimately though, sound-wise, there's nothing that compares to a top fuel dragster. It's indescribable! If you ever get out here to southern California, give me a call. I'd be more than happy to take you out to the NHRA Winternationals at Pomona. It's something you have to experience at least once in your life!

Good Luck.
Terry