Moss: F1 no longer fun with no risk to life and limb

[SeijaKessen]

It's a silly statement from somebody like Moss.

Lol, really?

Moss speaks a load of bull shine. Seems very bitter in his old age.

I don't think he is bitter, he has an opinion, just like we have ours.

Keep in mind, he's seen every era of F1 racing, and experienced a wide variety of racing all around.

I think the problem is people have been told ad nauseum for years about how awful and stupid people were for letting racing have the risk it did in those days, that they have come to accept it as gospel. Were it not for that awful era, we wouldn't have the legends we do in F1, nor would the past of F1 be as rich as it is.

If it were Schumacher making the same statements, the responses here would be a lot different than they are.

But since most weren't around to see Stirling Moss, he's just the annoying grandparent to people.

I have a lot of respect for the guy even though I don't agree with everything he says, he earned his voice.

[MIKEY_!]

This is a tough one since I agree with Sir Stirling totally but it's easy to sound like you want to see drivers getting killed, which I can't imagine anyone does. I believe F1 has gotten too safe but of course I am glad Mark Webber wasn't killed at Valencia in 2010, among many other incidents. The question is, should F1 be an extreme sport, where there is genuine risk or a normal sport like tennis or baseball where only a freak incident could get you seriously injured. I'll probably take a lot of criticism for this but I think F1 was so shocked by senna's death that any death or injury is now totally unacceptable. Look at MotoGP, when Simoncelli was killed people moved on, accepting that racing is inherently dangerous and that drivers accept that there is a small chance of death if someone stuffs up. The situation in F1 today is a direct result of the 'health and safety culture' we live in. As with all things health and safety is good to a point but boring and often irrelevant beyond that. Either F1 must allow faster cars or get fans closer to the action, both of which increase danger but also add to the 'show' which people make such a fuss about.

[RB7ate9]

... Either F1 must allow faster cars or get fans closer to the action, both of which increase danger but also add to the 'show' which people make such a fuss about.

If this is what is restricted by "being too safe" then I agree. Otherwise, the problem lies with the stewards and their timidity and inconsistency.

[stefan_]

It's silly because people don't see or don't want to see the shades of gray. Nothing is black or white - if you agree with Stirling that doesn't mean that you want people to die like in the 50s and 60s and you are a blood-thirsty savage, and if you don't agree that doesn't mean you are a safety millitant.

Formula 1, as Moto GP, Indy (although I have my own oppinions about running 300+km/h in an oval) or other sports that involve high speeds have their danger element that attracts people, and that is how it should be.

As I said in the de Villota crash thread, I am in the group of people (if it exists) who think that accidents are part of this sport, danger is a part of this sport and the drivers know that they could even die when they put their name on the contract. They do it because they like speed, they like racing, they like competing and winning - they know where their are getting into. It is a sport where you have to have balls to do it, and if you don't have them, you must go and do something else, don't try to change the sport in order to diminish your fears. Deal with it.

When I was karting, we had some old frames modified to fit a motorcycle motor (smaller size, don't remember exactly how much now - they were some bastardized karts) on them, capable of doing very high speeds. I drove it with a helmet without a vizor or neck protection through a course that it was in a park, with trees 1m away from the track and I absolutely loved it, I was eagerly waiting for the next day to drive them again. If you have the passion, safety is second.

[Mr Alcatraz]

It's silly because people don't see or don't want to see the shades of gray. Nothing is black or white - if you agree with Stirling that doesn't mean that you want people to die like in the 50s and 60s and you are a blood-thirsty savage, and if you don't agree that doesn't mean you are a safety millitant.

Formula 1, as Moto GP, Indy (although I have my own oppinions about running 300+km/h in an oval) or other sports that involve high speeds have their danger element that attracts people, and that is how it should be.

As I said in the de Villota crash thread, I am in the group of people (if it exists) who think that accidents are part of this sport, danger is a part of this sport and the drivers know that they could even die when they put their name on the contract. They do it because they like speed, they like racing, they like competing and winning - they know where their are getting into. It is a sport where you have to have balls to do it, and if you don't have them, you must go and do something else, don't try to change the sport in order to diminish your fears. Deal with it.

When I was karting, we had some old frames modified to fit a motorcycle motor (smaller size, don't remember exactly how much now - they were some bastardized karts) on them, capable of doing very high speeds. I drove it with a helmet without a vizor or neck protection through a course that it was in a park, with trees 1m away from the track and I absolutely loved it, I was waiting eagerly for the next day to drive them again. If you have the passion, safety is second.

Very well stated =D>
F1 is dangerous as it exists now...Fact!

[Sombrero]

It's not necessary to have deadly crashes to enjoy F-1 both for drivers and for fans.
But I would be nice to have back gravel traps so that today F-1 drivers stop running OUT of the track. It's a shame to see how it affect Spa-Francorchamps at Pouhon for example. That's not fun...

[strad]

The question is, should F1 be an extreme sport, where there is genuine risk or a normal sport like tennis or baseball where only a freak incident could get you seriously injured. .

Ah but MIKEY, that brings us back to the Ernest Hemingway quote "There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games."
I do agree with most of your post though, and think that is a generational thing, a taught philosophy. I think of it as the "bicycle helmet" era. Or more rightly the age where they started using fear to push every agenda.
I have a theory but here is not the time, but suffice to say I think it in large part stems from us being more removed from death these days.

[simieski]

To extend Strad's post a little... I think that the during the 50's especially, death was somewhat more readily accepted. WW2 would have still been very fresh in people's minds along with its enormous death toll. Repeat exposure to something generally has the psychological effect of desensitising you towards it. The F1 drivers of this era I guess we're comparable in people's minds to the RAF poster boy pilots of the war.

[strad]

I will add this as an olive branch of sorts..Safety is an illusion.
The present era is all too similar with another time when we thought we thought they had made F1 safe. We had proof in this wreck of Gerhard Berger, think about what they're saying...Berger could walk away from this life is good we are safe....check out the locale and similarities...

Motor racing will never be safe.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I will add this as an olive branch of sorts..Safety is an illusion.
The present era is all too similar with another time when we thought we thought they had made F1 safe. We had proof in this wreck of Gerhard Berger, think about what they're saying...Berger could walk away from this lief is good we are safe....check out the locale and similarities...
Motor racing will never be safe.

Amen Brother
BTW thanks for the vid don't know why I can't get the audio

[NowyszRacing6]

I've thought about this a fairly good amount, and the things that come to mind most are wall distance from the track, and the asphalt runoffs. What I enjoy about watching racing is seeing the drivers' skill to get the cars through corners as fast and close to the track boundaries as possible, especially around tracks where the apex is a solid object or a wall. I think it's possible to have safe tracks with this kind of layout (look at monaco, we still have that and it's reasonably safe right)? Maybe it's more dangerous than other tracks in open fields with massive runoffs, but it's still on the modern calendar and as far as I know there haven't been any major driver injuries/fatalities there in a long time. The most important thing to understand is that you can't make racing 100% risk free. that's the nature of it, so we need to realize when we're over-doing the safety at the expense of the driving/racing. I want to see the best drivers win because they have the most confidence and precision to get the car though the "calculated risk" that a racetrack should be. If they don't want any risk, they shouldn't do it, it's personal choice. So i guess my point is that we'd have a good compromise if we have these tracks with "more character" and things like solid apexes and minimal run off, but do this with our modern/safe cars and whatever other safety features we could use in the track design. How about bringing in the SAFER barriers from nascar for a start? Maybe even grass/gravel run off areas would be better in some cases It's a bit of a complicated topic....

[Cam]

I am putting this info up to try to keep things in perspective. Here's some info that would be food for thought.

The complete list of F1 fatalities in F1 since it's inception:


A summary of US statistics available from the US Department of Transportation: Traffic Safety Facts - 2010 Data (released in June, 2012, and still the most recent)
618 bicyclists died on US roads in 2010 (630 in 2009. 1,003 back in 1975)
52,000 bicyclists were injured in traffic 1n 2010 (51,000 in 2009)

F1 is as safe as it can be and the stats prove that. Is F1 no longer fun thanks to this increase in safety? Well, F1 is still fun, just not as 'by the seat of your pants' as it was in the good'ol days'.

I can see one avenue where his comments do run true. Overtaking. The rules are now as such that even a crossing of a white line or rough bump, leads to a penalty - that's how keen everyone wants to keep safe. Also, no-one is pushing anymore. F1 is now about conserving. The simply flat out no holds bar approach would, I think, be a better show and have everyone more on edge.

[dave34m]

Moss is totally correct. The FIA and Charlie Whiting are taking very much a pro active approach to safety and in some areas they have taken unnecessary steps that are a detriment to the spectacle of the sport.

The safety car is over used. It stays out 3 laps longer than necessary after an incident has been cleared. In the wet the situation becomes farcical. It comes out when the track has standing water these days, effectively making running on wets pointless. Instead we are treated to looking at two grumpy middle aged men sliding around inside a Mercedes v8 for 20 minutes. So really we get robbed of seeing who can handle a formula 1 car in those conditions. it is the pinnacle of Motorsport after all.

Current f1 drivers take more risks because they feel there is no danger. And this itself is a danger. F1 drivers these days have little respect for their fellow racers. They trip over each other all the time, not so long ago collisions took place far less often because of the real fear of injuring or killing someone. Everyone was in it together and thus nearly every driver had tremendous respect for each other.

There is a good argument for saying we are getting a diluted F1 these days, what with regulated tyres, rev limiters, heavy restricted engines and gearboxes the sport has totally changed over the years. Is it for the better, I dont know, but I respect Stirling Moss and his views even if I dont fully agree.

[beelsebob]

The complete list of F1 fatalities in F1 since it's inception:

It's not very complete... At least 3 marshals have been killed since Senna died.

[Cam]

Soz. Should have clarified.