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It's been 4 decades since we first saw ground effect cars with skirts and their dangers. Cars, safety, tracks, facilities and understanding of car behaviors have vastly evolved to be still stuck in the fear of those past incidents. Besides the only team that struggled the most is also out of porpoising issues.PhillipM wrote: ↑23 Jul 2022, 12:24There's a damn good reason the FIA banned skirts with ground effect cars and cars achieving the same effect with the floors is not desirable at all for the same issues. Porpoising is the least of it wait until they build more downforce into the cars without a rule change.
There hasn't been a single incident worth pointing finger at the floor this year. Not even close, so there isn't anything to fix. Cars aren't flipping on their own and they need a thwack from another for that to happen. There are significant safety issues elsewhere like roll hoop that broke on Alfa. Well, even in such a crash, the cars have proven to be resilient enough. There are a number of areas worthy of FIA's attention and floor definitely isn't one of them.PhillipM wrote: ↑23 Jul 2022, 14:32We've had plenty of issues with cars flipping since and what we've learned is it still causes serious problems, the porpoising is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a damn good reason devices to bridge the floor to the ground were banned before this year. Massive oversight by the regulators letting cars run the floors along the ground on the outer edges.
mendis wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 04:49There hasn't been a single incident worth pointing finger at the floor this year. Not even close, so there isn't anything to fix. Cars aren't flipping on their own and they need a thwack from another for that to happen. There are significant safety issues elsewhere like roll hoop that broke on Alfa. Well, even in such a crash, the cars have proven to be resilient enough. There are a number of areas worthy of FIA's attention and floor definitely isn't one of them.PhillipM wrote: ↑23 Jul 2022, 14:32We've had plenty of issues with cars flipping since and what we've learned is it still causes serious problems, the porpoising is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a damn good reason devices to bridge the floor to the ground were banned before this year. Massive oversight by the regulators letting cars run the floors along the ground on the outer edges.
Seems the teams have done pretty well so far after the TD come out? I mean watching the TV stream, the only bouncing/contact I heard was the Merc on the run up the bank out the chicane to the right hander. Didnt really notice any other bouncing.PhillipM wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 11:44mendis wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 04:49There hasn't been a single incident worth pointing finger at the floor this year. Not even close, so there isn't anything to fix. Cars aren't flipping on their own and they need a thwack from another for that to happen. There are significant safety issues elsewhere like roll hoop that broke on Alfa. Well, even in such a crash, the cars have proven to be resilient enough. There are a number of areas worthy of FIA's attention and floor definitely isn't one of them.PhillipM wrote: ↑23 Jul 2022, 14:32We've had plenty of issues with cars flipping since and what we've learned is it still causes serious problems, the porpoising is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a damn good reason devices to bridge the floor to the ground were banned before this year. Massive oversight by the regulators letting cars run the floors along the ground on the outer edges.
Porpoising is a sudden loss or stall of downforce from the underfloor. That has massive implications once teams get on top of the regulations and start driving the floors harder and find more downforce in the coming years, because you're gonna start getting situations where the teams are running the cars so low a bit of a tap, a slide, a bump or clouting a kerb a bit harder than usual stalls the underfloor and suddenly the car has no grip. That is an issue and it's why they're looking at it seriously right now.
You don't wait until someone's had a massive accident to change something.
That a bit of cliche. Accidents can happen for any number of reasons. This is not the first time cars are being run closer to the ground or skirts have been used, even if not physical. Previous generation of cars used to create skirt effect with aero profiles. These cars still miles off 2020 cars in terms of cornering or straight line speeds. I don't see how this is suddenly a problem. Besides, flow separation isn't anything new either and cars have experienced it and crashed. IMO, a failed DRS is more dangerous than skirted floors and that probability is way higher than a floor issue. Anyway, porpoising is gone and teams will get better understanding of new rules and this is just first year of regulations. Changing rules on the suspicion of an accident, isn't wise.PhillipM wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 11:44mendis wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 04:49There hasn't been a single incident worth pointing finger at the floor this year. Not even close, so there isn't anything to fix. Cars aren't flipping on their own and they need a thwack from another for that to happen. There are significant safety issues elsewhere like roll hoop that broke on Alfa. Well, even in such a crash, the cars have proven to be resilient enough. There are a number of areas worthy of FIA's attention and floor definitely isn't one of them.PhillipM wrote: ↑23 Jul 2022, 14:32We've had plenty of issues with cars flipping since and what we've learned is it still causes serious problems, the porpoising is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a damn good reason devices to bridge the floor to the ground were banned before this year. Massive oversight by the regulators letting cars run the floors along the ground on the outer edges.
Porpoising is a sudden loss or stall of downforce from the underfloor. That has massive implications once teams get on top of the regulations and start driving the floors harder and find more downforce in the coming years, because you're gonna start getting situations where the teams are running the cars so low a bit of a tap, a slide, a bump or clouting a kerb a bit harder than usual stalls the underfloor and suddenly the car has no grip. That is an issue and it's why they're looking at it seriously right now.
You don't wait until someone's had a massive accident to change something.
They have so far, but generally over a winter especially with new rules you'll find the teams manage to put considerable amounts more load on the car, which is only ever going to be more and more of a problem.
Is this not what was thought to have been a major cause in Senna's accident? He was skidding with the floor acting like a ski rather than the wheels being in control?PhillipM wrote: ↑24 Jul 2022, 12:31They have so far, but generally over a winter especially with new rules you'll find the teams manage to put considerable amounts more load on the car, which is only ever going to be more and more of a problem.
As for the other post about vortexes and airskirts - massive difference because those vortices become less effective as the floor got very close to the ground - they were almost self compensating, and still nowhere near as close to effectiveness as actually skating the floor over the ground. Certainly in an era with tunnels where the floors are making 30% more load than those old floors ever were no matter how close to the ground.
Hell we had regs forbidding devices intended to function as any form or skirt or bridge between the floor and the track and yet we have cars running floor skates now to let the outer edge of the floor run there...it needs shutting down now before it becomes a problem because as history has shown with ground effect - once it is a problem you find out very suddenly and with a very big accident.
