[MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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UlleGulle
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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CAEdevice wrote:
03 Oct 2022, 15:55

... or that all the elements connecting airfoils (or "wing profiles") to the endplates must be a single blend of one or more sections
Thats just simpler, and better, to be honest.

BlueCheetah66
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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I might have read the regulations wrong, but I believe there was nothing stopping people putting more than two elements in the area of the beam wing. I myself didnt exploit it but it should probably be changed for 2023

A change I would want to see for 2023 is a change to the Floor Plan reference surface to allow for more details on the floor edge

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CAEdevice
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
30 Dec 2022, 18:33
I might have read the regulations wrong, but I believe there was nothing stopping people putting more than two elements in the area of the beam wing. I myself didnt exploit it but it should probably be changed for 2023

A change I would want to see for 2023 is a change to the Floor Plan reference surface to allow for more details on the floor edge
I am convinced that 1 single airfoil (element) worked perfectly in that area, so in my opionion we don't need a specific rule.

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G-raph
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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I had 3 :wink:

I'd be disappointed if the beamwing elements are limited to 2, as I love the freedom that this challenge gives us. But I guess if you want to match the F1 rules better, then this change makes sense.
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
30 Dec 2022, 18:33
A change I would want to see for 2023 is a change to the Floor Plan reference surface to allow for more details on the floor edge
I would also like to have more freedom on the floor edge, that's the one area where it is more restrictive than the F1 rules. Although the change to the Floor Plan reference surface would help, I found that the most limiting factor was the single section rule (particularly on an X-plane). So we probably need a specific box (like the fences) where floor rules don't apply.

beschadigunc
beschadigunc
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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I agree on the specific box for the floor edge , also maybe make the upper floor box more free and allow suspension covers to be angled and or redesigned

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CAEdevice
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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In case the staff decide to confirm the cooling flow rate, I would suggest to abolish or reduce the minimum area for the heat exchangers (180000 mm2).

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jjn9128
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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CAEdevice wrote:
01 Jan 2023, 20:46
In case the staff decide to confirm the cooling flow rate, I would suggest to abolish or reduce the minimum area for the heat exchangers (180000 mm2).
I'd say that's about right IMO, 700mm x 260-ish if rectangular. It's good practice as working with engine suppliers they'd give a cooling target that as an aero you'd want to halve :lol:
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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CAEdevice
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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jjn9128 wrote:
01 Jan 2023, 21:37
CAEdevice wrote:
01 Jan 2023, 20:46
In case the staff decide to confirm the cooling flow rate, I would suggest to abolish or reduce the minimum area for the heat exchangers (180000 mm2).
I'd say that's about right IMO, 700mm x 260-ish if rectangular. It's good practice as working with engine suppliers they'd give a cooling target that as an aero you'd want to halve :lol:
I agree, consider that I used larger heat exchangers in 2022 (much more than 200000 mm2 with a maximum around 250000 mm2), but, once a resonable cooling flow has been obtained, I think we can allow more design freedom.

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CAEdevice
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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Hi, in the MVRC 2022 thread someone talked about the 2023 wheels and the possibility to improve of the realism of the tyre wake.

From my point of view (I am the tyre supplier mentioned in the MVRC emails ;) ), the geometry 2023 will inlcude small updates, in order to match the real tyres shape. More specifically, the edge of the rubber will be more rounded for both rear and front wheels, this will have a significant impact on wake.

Nevertheless, I think that the shape of the wheel wake also depends on the mesh in the volume behind the wheel and on the simulation of surface roughness, that are related to simulation parameters.

Image

beschadigunc
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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It usually depends on contact patch depth and implementation.

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Koldskaal
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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CAEdevice wrote:
07 Jan 2023, 13:12

From my point of view (I am the tyre supplier mentioned in the MVRC emails ;) ), the geometry 2023 will inlcude small updates, in order to match the real tyres shape. More specifically, the edge of the rubber will be more rounded for both rear and front wheels, this will have a significant impact on wake.
I think the tyre shape would be improved if we ignored the tyre deflection. imo the deflection on the current tyres is exaggerated. It seems like outermost shoulder of the front tyre shouldn't touch the road.
Image

I also found these images pretty interesting:
viewtopic.php?p=1037553#p1037553
The simulation DP did on the williams had very small contact patch.
MVRC - Koldskaal, name: Christian

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jjn9128
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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Cpatch depends on tyre load and camber/roll/steer etc. IMO what you guys use is quite a square profile for a tyre, getting that right will have a huge influence on how you design your tunnels and even rear wing depending where the upper shoulder wake ends up. I prefer a simple revolute for they tyre shape with a split cpatch and plinth for meshing.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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spacehead3
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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For what it's worth, in the lap sim (with 2020 car / tire) I only have ~5mm of vertical tire deflection at end of straight. The actual tire squish due to load is greater but there is also the rpm growth component which cancels a lot of it out. Basically I found that any more than that and the car doesn't have enough suspension travel to keep from bottoming out.
Max Taylor

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LVDH
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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Hi guys,
it is time for me to also get involved in these discussions. regarding the tire wake. There was also a comment in the other thread about this. There are many factors that play a role. I think the comment was not totally right as the person did not seem to notice that the slice shown was very close to the floor and not in the middle of the wheels where the wake would have appeared much more pronounced. Now, is our wake super realistic? Who knows, but the thing is it will never really be. Be run rather coarse steady state simulations. The wake will only look more realistic when using averaged transient simulations. This however will blow up computing times and there I think we currently have a nice tradeoff.
I am happy to work on the tire CAD though and have a more realistic tire patch f that is so important for you guys. Here are images that I think help more that what was shown here so far:
https://www.racetechmag.com/2019/03/wil ... s-dilemma/
Image
I have a feeling, I mostly have to change the camber of the front wheels.
Now about cooling: I am open to discuss that with you guys as well. Now why do we run the cooling part the way we do?
First of all it is important to look at how a real F1 works in regards to thermal management. The cars have turbo charged ICEs. These ICEs and additional components demand a number of cooling flows, I will list a few:
  • Heat exchanger(s oil/water) for the engine block
  • Charger air cooler
  • Hydraulics cooling
You can find more here:
https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/car-c ... -explained
Now how can we model all this in CFD? For one, we can simply create a porous medium for every heat exchanger in question and model it that way. This would work but please keep in mind that we have to keep things simple to a certain extent. Many F1 cars will not be symmetric and some teams might choose to put some of the HXs into the center of the car fed by to top inlet. Allowing you guys to go for configurations like this will make thing far to complicated and turn the challenge more into a thermal management challenge rather than an external aerodynamics challenge. So what we do is simply have on heat exchanger at one side of the car, as we are utilizing symmetry, to keep the run time low, that represents all cooling needed for the entire car. This is a better simplification that you might think at first. But a team running a water and an oil cooler behind each other (that is how it would be done in F1) would have two porous media right behind each other, this is pretty much just like running one thicker one, in the simulation it makes no real difference. The only thing you are missing out on is the possibility to have HXs in the center of the car. But this is simply out of scope. To allow it, we would first of all have to run a porous medium for every HX and then actually account for the shift in CoG and then also deal with the actual air intake. So I hope it is clear that we will keep the current layout of the cooling simulation as it is.
Now, what we can discuss is the demand of cooling flow and the porous media resistance. I have gone through the numbers more than once and even consulted with a previous F1 engineer and I am happy with what we have. So if anyone thinks something here is unrealistic, please present cold hard numbers to support what you are saying. Estimate the complete cooling demand, how much air would be needed or show me some pressure drop data from real F1 HX cores.

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CAEdevice
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Re: [MVRC] Potential rule changes for 2023

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I pretty much agree about everything.

I would suggest to keep the same cooling flow and porous properties we used in 2022, with some small updates:

* minimum hx surface reduced to 150000 mm2
* Reduced size of the engine (it is a bit too large: a smaller engine would help the cooling, especially the portion of the flow that goes around the engine)
* Rake (it would allow a smaller front wing incidence and it would raise a bit the cooling inlets). I can provide three different setups (0,1,2°) for gearbox and suspensions if the "morphing" function will not be available on time.
* slightly narrower safety cell (or simply better shaped and rounded)
* rounded airbox (same reason as for the engine)
* Better orientation of the front suspensions arms, in order to avoid or reduce flow separation
* 50mm thick HXs instead of 60mm (reducing the porosity proportionally in order keep the same pressure drop)