2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[SiLo]

Can they test next years parts as part of this test?

No test parts or set-up changes will be permitted which give any sort of information to the competitor that is unrelated to the tyre test. All teams are only allowed to install parts used during race weekends.

I still remember the unbelievable confidence the team had when they raced with Pitot tubes attached above the diffuser just so they could run then in the test straight after.

[j_ste]

Was just watching the post-race interview last night. Comparing this year's Abu Dhabi post-race interview to 2022, the Merc drivers (especially LH) seem less optimistic as compared to last year when they won a race in Brazil. LH is also showing some signs of burnout after a very difficult and long season struggling with W14.

Since James Allison returned as Technical Director 7 months ago, the Merc has shown some signs of improvement but still struggling with the car setup and unpredictability. With Hamilton talking about Max's 17-second gap to 2nd, even when Max was barely pushing at the front that will put tremendous pressure on James Allsons his team over the winter to deliver a Brawn GP-like miracle with the W15

What is good for LH is shifting his focus on remaining in F1 for the Africa race which also means he may be hanging around for some more years to come as I don't think a race in Africa can be set up within a year or 2.

If 2024 doesn't turn out well, I think it will be closure for LH on the 8th WDC to start looking to become an ambassador for F1 instead.

Allison has said he hasnt touched anything to do with the W14 since he came back and is only working on the W15, i thought he did since the new floor at COTA was said to be a trail run for the new concept so dont know how that works but yea



and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team

Here is James Allison talking about the new floor in Oct 2023. Obviously, it didn't turn out as well as they hoped for

"It should be good at any circuit for the remainder of the year. It’s not transformative, [it] should be about a tenth of a second.

"It’s in the direction we think is decent, both for producing downforce in the right place, and hopefully being resistant to the bounciness that all these cars nibble at as soon as you try and get much downforce from them."
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... zloec.html

The man said it wont be transformative. Everything is testing for next season....time will tell if they get it right

[ValeVida46]

Are we seriously gonna pretend Toto didn't immediately aggressively downplay the incident? Is he on the Las Vegas promoter's (FOM, by the way) payroll? Or is there another agenda for him and his team? That's the 4 you missed, VV46

The agenda is clearly you taking a contentious stance based on superfluous speculation started by Croft in the pitbox.
The story you quote as evidence, is in fact a denial sourced indirectly by Kravitz.

And Sky commentator David Croft hinted that he had information that was true also, leading to speculation that Mercedes, who are in a fight with Ferrari for second in the constructors' championship, might have put their foot down. But Croft's colleague Ted Kravitz said he had been flatly told by Mercedes that this is not true.

That is not evidence. And the jettisoning of the argument is that isolating Mercedes (Forum pattern behaviour) also ignores other teams. And the Stewards...who essentially get off scot-free in your rant.

The precedent is that even when it’s not the driver or team’s fault, you carry the penalty and the rules don’t allow for discretion to be applied’, as the steward explained

Yea that's Mercedes and Toto's fault...

[Vanja #66]

The agenda is clearly you taking a contentious stance based on superfluous speculation started by Croft in the pitbox.
The story you quote as evidence, is in fact a denial sourced indirectly by Kravitz.

And Sky commentator David Croft hinted that he had information that was true also, leading to speculation that Mercedes, who are in a fight with Ferrari for second in the constructors' championship, might have put their foot down. But Croft's colleague Ted Kravitz said he had been flatly told by Mercedes that this is not true.

That is not evidence. And the jettisoning of the argument is that isolating Mercedes (Forum pattern behaviour) also ignores other teams. And the Stewards...who essentially get off scot-free in your rant.

The precedent is that even when it’s not the driver or team’s fault, you carry the penalty and the rules don’t allow for discretion to be applied’, as the steward explained

Yea that's Mercedes and Toto's fault...

Literally ignored the evidence that don't work in your favour, presented "new" arguments out of context and offered it as a cheap spin. Toto would be proud

Watch out though, so far it backfired in RB and Max' favour. I wonder how long it will take Toto to understand and stop doing that...

[denyall]

Give it a rest...

Sports aren't fair.

[Elite]

Was just watching the post-race interview last night. Comparing this year's Abu Dhabi post-race interview to 2022, the Merc drivers (especially LH) seem less optimistic as compared to last year when they won a race in Brazil. LH is also showing some signs of burnout after a very difficult and long season struggling with W14.

Since James Allison returned as Technical Director 7 months ago, the Merc has shown some signs of improvement but still struggling with the car setup and unpredictability. With Hamilton talking about Max's 17-second gap to 2nd, even when Max was barely pushing at the front that will put tremendous pressure on James Allsons his team over the winter to deliver a Brawn GP-like miracle with the W15

What is good for LH is shifting his focus on remaining in F1 for the Africa race which also means he may be hanging around for some more years to come as I don't think a race in Africa can be set up within a year or 2.

If 2024 doesn't turn out well, I think it will be closure for LH on the 8th WDC to start looking to become an ambassador for F1 instead.

Allison has said he hasnt touched anything to do with the W14 since he came back and is only working on the W15, i thought he did since the new floor at COTA was said to be a trail run for the new concept so dont know how that works but yea



and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team

Here is James Allison talking about the new floor in Oct 2023. Obviously, it didn't turn out as well as they hoped for

"It should be good at any circuit for the remainder of the year. It’s not transformative, [it] should be about a tenth of a second.

"It’s in the direction we think is decent, both for producing downforce in the right place, and hopefully being resistant to the bounciness that all these cars nibble at as soon as you try and get much downforce from them."
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... zloec.html

Car was good at all remaining tracks except Brazil which was a set up blunder. I would say the floor is working as he described it would but none of us have the data to say.

Either way the W15 will need to be a big improvement to compete at the front. Luckily they have some low hanging fruit like moving the cockpit back, no more zero pods chassis and the engine benefits that allegedly come from it and moving the SIPS. They will also need to complete redesign the suspension imo as that seems to be quite important in this rule set. An efficient car is what they need to make essentially, one that works at all if not most tracks. Not like other cars where they will be fast one race and then at the back in another, but luckily they’re not that inefficient.

[AR3-GP]

Merc from '14-'21 was probably one of the most efficient cars on the grid. They need to go back to their roots. Whatever the W13/W14 was, is very uncharacteristic.

[Elite]

Merc from '14-'21 was probably one of the most efficient cars on the grid. They need to go back to their roots. Whatever the W13/W14 was, is very uncharacteristic.

They tried something radical and it back fired. Elliot should’ve realised it was going to fail when the compromises the concept needed started counting up. Glad Allison is running the show as I think they will get back to the front quicker than if Mike was leading it (if they ever did under him). But of course Mike must be credited for his contribution to their success in the turbo hybrid era.

[Matt2725]

I initially joined this forum as I assumed it would be a more mature setting to discuss F1 as a whole.

Apparently it's just another Reddit/Twitter offshoot....

<Mod edit: some actions have been taken>

[mstar]

Lewis is a master at applying himself when it matters. He did enough to get P2 for the team. He's not the guy who must win every race he's in.

I agree as he said last season -as soon as he gets a good car he will raise his game like he has always done to fight for the WDC. This is the difference between elite drivers like max and lewis compared to other drivers. When needed they find that little more mental strength, skill, determination, will etc to push their capabilities to another level, with EXTREME pressure and be consistent. I cannot say that for any other driver (maybe Alonso?) on the grid.

[mstar]

Merc from '14-'21 was probably one of the most efficient cars on the grid. They need to go back to their roots. Whatever the W13/W14 was, is very uncharacteristic.

They tried something radical and it back fired. Elliot should’ve realised it was going to fail when the compromises the concept needed started counting up. Glad Allison is running the show as I think they will get back to the front quicker than if Mike was leading it (if they ever did under him). But of course Mike must be credited for his contribution to their success in the turbo hybrid era.

Alison from his earlier days and first Ferrari he designed was known to give VERY good drivable cars which have good balance. Whether he can make it fast enough is another story. Lewis said the last best car mercedes produced was the 2020 car which was Alisons last one he fully designed before he left to do sailing.

[stonehenge]

Allison has said he hasnt touched anything to do with the W14 since he came back and is only working on the W15, i thought he did since the new floor at COTA was said to be a trail run for the new concept so dont know how that works but yea



and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team

Here is James Allison talking about the new floor in Oct 2023. Obviously, it didn't turn out as well as they hoped for

"It should be good at any circuit for the remainder of the year. It’s not transformative, [it] should be about a tenth of a second.

"It’s in the direction we think is decent, both for producing downforce in the right place, and hopefully being resistant to the bounciness that all these cars nibble at as soon as you try and get much downforce from them."
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... zloec.html

Car was good at all remaining tracks except Brazil which was a set up blunder. I would say the floor is working as he described it would but none of us have the data to say.

Either way the W15 will need to be a big improvement to compete at the front. Luckily they have some low hanging fruit like moving the cockpit back, no more zero pods chassis and the engine benefits that allegedly come from it and moving the SIPS. They will also need to complete redesign the suspension imo as that seems to be quite important in this rule set. An efficient car is what they need to make essentially, one that works at all if not most tracks. Not like other cars where they will be fast one race and then at the back in another, but luckily they’re not that inefficient.

I think Mercedes has a good chance to significantly improve over the winter since, as you say, there are some very low hanging fruit out there, particularly on the geometry of the chassis and rear suspension. Word on the street is that all teams are pretty much gonna copy Red Bull's approach next year so there should be some gains there from every team. The question (as always in F1) is how much relative gain can teams make, and that comes down to how high the ceiling for Red Bull is. I hope it's quite low, and there are good reasons to think so. Since the aero development is quite limited by the regulations and the majority of downforce comes from the floor, perfecting the car is much more about optimizing the balance of the car than in previous seasons. You can't count on new parts simply making you faster (that's an oversimplification, I know, but the point is reasonable).

Instead, new parts that *should* be faster on paper may even make you go slower because they make it harder to hit the correct setup window. This has plagued all teams for the past two years to some degree. Most notably Aston Martin which brought upgrades around Canada that the team thought would help them challenge for wins, but instead completely backfired. Even Red Bull reverted to a previous spec at Singapore IIRC because they just couldn't hit the setup window with the new floor. Doesn't mean the new spec was somehow worse than the old one, but just demonstrates that perfecting the balance is by far the most important thing under these regs and that means developing the car correctly is difficult. So, I think there's good reason to think that at least a few teams (especially Ferrari if the word on the street is accurate) will be competitive next year, but until the cars hit the track next February we simply won't know.

[McMika98]

I think Mercedes has a good chance to significantly improve over the winter since, as you say, there are some very low hanging fruit out there, particularly on the geometry of the chassis and rear suspension. Word on the street is that all teams are pretty much gonna copy Red Bull's approach next year so there should be some gains there from every team. The question (as always in F1) is how much relative gain can teams make, and that comes down to how high the ceiling for Red Bull is. I hope it's quite low, and there are good reasons to think so.

HATE to burst your and many fans bubble but it ain't happening.

ToTo speaking to the F1 Nation podcast after Abu Dhabi is absolute resolute and dismissive. He mentioned that looking at Aston early season showed that the suspension and gearbox etc were fundamentally sound and did not need addressing. Such a shame as they will drag both Aston and Williams down with this utter stupendous arrogance and unwavering penchant to fail and not learn from mistakes. 2024 is already looking gloomy with no chance of catching Redbull but being behind Mclaren and Alpha Tauri.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

To add more insult to injury

The RB20 will be another evolution. Red Bull still sees plenty of potential for development with its concept, which everyone has now switched to. The development curve is still steep, according to rumours from Milton Keynes. With the early start to development, the world champion team hopes to come out of the starting blocks with plenty of momentum.

And yet there are stumbling blocks. Although the budget cap penalty has expired, it is likely to continue to have an impact to a certain extent in 2024. It is said that this will primarily affect the second package - i.e. the first upgrade package during the season.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rb20-2024/

[Luscion]

I think Mercedes has a good chance to significantly improve over the winter since, as you say, there are some very low hanging fruit out there, particularly on the geometry of the chassis and rear suspension. Word on the street is that all teams are pretty much gonna copy Red Bull's approach next year so there should be some gains there from every team. The question (as always in F1) is how much relative gain can teams make, and that comes down to how high the ceiling for Red Bull is. I hope it's quite low, and there are good reasons to think so.

HATE to burst your and many fans bubble but it ain't happening.

ToTo speaking to the F1 Nation podcast after Abu Dhabi is absolute resolute and dismissive. He mentioned that looking at Aston early season showed that the suspension and gearbox etc were fundamentally sound and did not need addressing. Such a shame as they will drag both Aston and Williams down with this utter stupendous arrogance and unwavering penchant to fail and not learn from mistakes. 2024 is already looking gloomy with no chance of catching Redbull but being behind Mclaren and Alpha Tauri.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

To add more insult to injury

The RB20 will be another evolution. Red Bull still sees plenty of potential for development with its concept, which everyone has now switched to. The development curve is still steep, according to rumours from Milton Keynes. With the early start to development, the world champion team hopes to come out of the starting blocks with plenty of momentum.

And yet there are stumbling blocks. Although the budget cap penalty has expired, it is likely to continue to have an impact to a certain extent in 2024. It is said that this will primarily affect the second package - i.e. the first upgrade package during the season.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rb20-2024/

did we listen to the same interview? thats just normal Toto and nothing he said there indicated he thinks they're doomed for 2024. About the suspension, Merc are completely changing the suspension, rear and front for the W15, both Toto and Shovlin have said so, shovlin also said they found a lot of development potential with suspension after bringing their Monaco upgrades.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10481878/

The gear box and engine layout will also change due to it not having to be limited by the zero pod design anymore. Like toto said, almost every component will be changed, theres almost nothing theyre keeping from the W14

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10552803/

[Hammerfist]

HATE to burst your and many fans bubble but it ain't happening.

ToTo speaking to the F1 Nation podcast after Abu Dhabi is absolute resolute and dismissive. He mentioned that looking at Aston early season showed that the suspension and gearbox etc were fundamentally sound and did not need addressing. Such a shame as they will drag both Aston and Williams down with this utter stupendous arrogance and unwavering penchant to fail and not learn from mistakes. 2024 is already looking gloomy with no chance of catching Redbull but being behind Mclaren and Alpha Tauri.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQFA

To add more insult to injury



https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rb20-2024/

did we listen to the same interview? thats just normal Toto and nothing he said there indicated he thinks they're doomed for 2024. About the suspension, Merc are completely changing the suspension, rear and front for the W15, both Toto and Shovlin have said so, shovlin also said they found a lot of development potential with suspension after bringing their Monaco upgrades.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10481878/

The gear box and engine layout will also change due to it not having to be limited by the zero pod design anymore. Like toto said, almost every component will be changed, theres almost nothing theyre keeping from the W14

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10552803/

One thing I can be confident of is they should be much quicker in the straight line. With the zero pod cooling restrictions gone the pu will be able to run harder, like they did in Vegas. And they were among the quickest in the straights in Vegas. That and I’m sure their new aero concept will gain some efficiency.