TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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It's a bit inconclusive if RedBull were really affected.
One one hand they did not win by 30 seconds and Perez was nowhere. You know, it could be that these breaches were helping stabilize the car for a driver like Sergio, and that Max could drive around the instabilities.
On the other hand, the McLaren sort of blurried the picture somewhat... but yes.. still inconclusive.. but RedBull has not destroyed the field here yet again.
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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 00:55
It's a bit inconclusive if RedBull were really affected.
One one hand they did not win by 30 seconds and Perez was nowhere. You know, it could be that these breaches were helping stabilize the car for a driver like Sergio, and that Max could drive around the instabilities.
On the other hand, the McLaren sort of blurried the picture somewhat... but yes.. still inconclusive.. but RedBull has not destroyed the field here yet again.
How many 30s wins have they had this season?

The answer is 3.. and one of those was only due to a Leclerc DNF from 20s back. 3 out of 16. But not doing it here, that's absolutely evidence for TD018 effects right?

Idk why you want to double down on the 30s thing when it's clearly a load of rubbish.

More interesting is that mercedes were the joint lowest in the speedtrap this weekend despite running fairly low rear wing. It was also the largest deficit to the lead team in qualifying that they've had all year.

They also had balance issues in high speed with too much front end - something that could happen if your components like front wing aren't shedding drag, downforce (by flexing) at high speed causing a shift in aero balance forwards. Balance issues were the first thing that was obvious for the AMR23 when people realized that they had been affected negatively by a directive aimed at flexible elements

Telemetry shows that the high speed instability was so bad that Merc drivers were using throttle mid corner in high speed in qualifying to try to stabilize the car..something that's only started happening recently. In the esses and spoon Hamilton never comes off throttle completely in qualifying, for instance.

This is supposed to be a technical forum rather than creating narratives you simply want to be true :?
Last edited by organic on 25 Sep 2023, 01:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 00:55
It's a bit inconclusive if RedBull were really affected.
One one hand they did not win by 30 seconds and Perez was nowhere. You know, it could be that these breaches were helping stabilize the car for a driver like Sergio, and that Max could drive around the instabilities.
On the other hand, the McLaren sort of blurried the picture somewhat... but yes.. still inconclusive.. but RedBull has not destroyed the field here yet again.
It's pretty clear their straight line speed is still strong and their high speed corner performance is better than the rest.

If this TD did something to them it's really minimal.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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We cannot ignore Perez's performance.
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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 01:50
We cannot ignore Perez's performance.
Didn't he fail to make q2 for like 5 straight races earlier in the season?

He qualified 8 tenths off Max at Suzuka which is less than the margin he's had to max at other times this season (9 tenths at spa, 1.9s at Canada in Q2, 1.3s at Zandvoort). While Max's margin in qualifying at Suzuka was the 2nd largest it's been over the field all year. Stop clutching at straws?

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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 01:50
We cannot ignore Perez's performance.
Qualifying:

Aus: P20
Bak: P3
Mia : P1
Mon: P20
Spa: P11
Can: P12
Aut: P15
Bri: P16
huny: P9
Bel: P3
Ne: P7
Ita: P5
Sin: P15
Jap: P5

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TFSA
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote:We cannot ignore Perez's performance.
We not only can - we have to. For the purposes of this discussion, the only interesting data point is what the cars are capable of.

And if just one driver can make it sing, then whatever the other driver is doing is rather irrelevant.

Cs98
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 01:50
We cannot ignore Perez's performance.
The entire premise that it's a dominant car is based on ignoring Perez's performance, so we absolutely can.

McLaren has clearly taken a step with their upgrades. The gap to the other teams is as big as ever. Could be that the likes of Merc and AMR have been affected by the TD.

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Sieper
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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We are certainly going to watch out for that. Merc wasn’t as competitive here as they have been in some other races so for me it is a bit inconclusive if they have been hit. Lewis was something like 50 seconds off Max. He said if Max could make a gap of 30 seconds then everything is normal, but this is a bit more.

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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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If you cannot recognize the trolling by PZ you are blind.

basti313
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Where would you place Qatar in tracks? We expected to have in Japan a similar result like in Spain. I feel like Qatar is also not far off from this style of corners.
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organic
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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basti313 wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 10:32
Where would you place Qatar in tracks? We expected to have in Japan a similar result like in Spain. I feel like Qatar is also not far off from this style of corners.
Similar to Zandvoort and spain yes but basically no low speed. Main difference with Qatar is the kerbs are more aggressive than others. In 2021 they caused damage to some front wings/floors

TimW
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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Was Alonso's race compromised in Spain? If you compare Japan to Spain, the gap for Aston Martin is actually pretty similar. So it does not seem to have been affected by the TD now (but they may have been forced to make changes earlier already of course).

The only team that has really dropped back if you compare Japan to Spain is Mercedes.

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Wouter
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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TimW wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 10:53
Was Alonso's race compromised in Spain? If you compare Japan to Spain, the gap for Aston Martin is actually pretty similar. So it does not seem to have been affected by the TD now (but they may have been forced to make changes earlier already of course).

The only team that has really dropped back if you compare Japan to Spain is Mercedes.
.
Former engineer Blake Hinsey (BrrrakeF1) always analysis sessions. Here's a nice one from the Japanese qualifying:

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Juzh
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Re: TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

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organic wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 10:39
basti313 wrote: ↑
25 Sep 2023, 10:32
Where would you place Qatar in tracks? We expected to have in Japan a similar result like in Spain. I feel like Qatar is also not far off from this style of corners.
Similar to Zandvoort and spain yes but basically no low speed. Main difference with Qatar is the kerbs are more aggressive than others. In 2021 they caused damage to some front wings/floors
Red & white painted ones are not a problem and are low enough to go over easily. Those additional white protrusions are the ones that caused mayhem in 2021. I count 5 corner exits with these kerbs 2023 cars will not dare touch.

T15 - this one was able to destroy 2021 cars, so 2023 will be easy meat. pretty much guaranteed floor destruction.
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