2024 Alpine F1 Team

[diffuser]

An entire wall of rumor mongering and nonsense.

Again, no one spends 25 years at Ferrari and reaches the top level of the team as an engineer without leadership abilities.

Not a single rumour, all facts. To add on, his TP period at Ferrari has seen the biggest fall in strategy and operations quality in Ferrari in the last 30+ years. The reason he wasn't given an offer he can't refuse in any other team is Ferrari making small, but clear improvements in all fields in the second half of 2023 under Vasseur. So the definitive reason behind Ferrari's 2020-2023 failures definitely wasn't "Ferrari is being Ferrari," it was Binotto's incompetence and arrogance in many small areas leading to massive fails overall.

He was given 2 offers, atleast.

I don't see one item of fact in your comment that shows that Binotto was not and Excellent engineer and a great leader.

Massive fails ...2nd constructors in 2022 ..massive improvements 3ird in 2023. FACTS!!!!!

[Vanja #66]

He was given 2 offers, atleast.

I don't see one item of fact in your comment that shows that Binotto was not and Excellent engineer and a great leader.

Massive fails ...2nd constructors in 2022 ..massive improvements 3ird in 2023. FACTS!!!!!

Yes, 2 offers and he settled to run a new e-powertrain division of a (relatively) small Italian diagnostics manufacturer...

As a PU engineer he did good work. Yet since stepping at the top of Scuderia, he's made a lot of bad moves, starting with FIA deal on 2019 PU issue. It took Ferrari PU 4 seasons to recover from this great deal.

Great leader? A great leader does not let two amazing drivers clash so many times, like Leclerc and Vettel did in 2019. A great leader does not work against either driver and it was revealed he influenced Leclerc's strategy several times in 2022, most notably in Silverstone. By the end of the season, Leclerc stopped talking to him, can't imagine why... Just to reiterate, Ferrari's operations under Binotto were never as poor since before Todt joined.

As for 2022, it was a massive fail in the end. 2 wins in the first 3 races, 5 podiums in total. Ferrari had 104p in WCC, Red Bull was at a distant 55p. To forfeit that title fight before the final race would be a shame, yet Ferrari effectively forfeited mid-season and it was Binotto's decision. Unacceptable for any team. He agreed to a terrible TD39 that cost them so much after the summer break. They barely ended up P2 after a fantastic start and Merc's awful start, that's a failed season after the start they had.

2023 started with Ferrari at P4 and, had they not improved, would have ended up P5 by the end of the season. After great improvements on the car, they would have ended P2 in WCC had Toto been a gentleman in Vegas. That's a big improvement in a season my friend.

At Alpine, Binotto would have been eaten alive already. It's a great shame for himself and Ferrari that things didn't work out, but he wanted to keep deciding on everything and insisted on a basically all-Italian Ferrari team and also insisted they don't need to learn from people coming from other teams. He was very wrong...

[KimiRai]

The 2024 alpine f1 summary (first post) has been updated according to the new technical directors .

[KimiRai]

I know Bob Bell's in Aston now but I think these quotes of his are relevant to Alpine too.

"It's important to fully integrate the engine with the rest of the car. At Renault, my role was to stress the need for this integration and to push it as far as possible."

"In F1, where it's all about marginal gains, the benefits of full integration are tangible. It's not just about the chassis or engine design, how they fit together, but rather how they operate together, the harmony of the control systems, how you make the car work to score points on Sunday afternoon."

"Until now, that advantage has been the preserve of Mercedes and Ferrari. Given the sophistication of today's powertrains, being a factory team is a major advantage. It's a much more integrated challenge than what I've experienced previously."

"At Renault, being separated by the English Channel complicated things a little. It's much simpler for Ferrari, where all the departments are housed under the same roof. In comparison, it's more difficult for Mercedes, because Brackley and Brixworth are some thirty kilometres apart. However, there's no big difference between being separated by 30 km or 300 km: either you're in the same building, or you're not."

https://f1i.autojournal.fr/magazine/mag ... in-alonso/

We continuously hear them about trying to improve the collaboration and synergy between the two bases, how about you just put them on the same roof! That would be a real statement of intent and no longer flying in economy class. But, the real issue I think, money. Not sure if Groupe Renault will ever allow that kind of investment. If that's the case and if it is not going to change, then if you were a fan you would almost prefer someone else with more vision and resources to take over and return this great team to winning ways.

[continuum16]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but there is enough data to suggest that the A524 is comfortably the least improved car compared to 2023, and in some instances is even slower. I ask you then, Why can the team not run the A523? In the past it was not uncommon to run the old car for the start of the next season until the new car was ready. Even Ferrari did this in the mid-2000s and still won the title. So why run the A524 if it's "not ready" if last year's car is faster? Or at least run one driver in the '23 and one in the '24.

I stress that I'm genuinely curious (and not thinking they will actually do this) as to what would prohibit someone from doing so. Is it the cost cap? Is it required that teams must run the same chassis across both cars (I know in the old days it was not uncommon to run different chassis across drivers, but has the rule changed to prevent this?)? Is it the changes in roll hoop specs after the Zhou Silverstone crash make it so that the crash test requirements are different? Is it a PU allocation problem? Or is it just a matter of saving face because if the new car was visibly slower you would be embarrassed to have a direct comparison?

[JordanMugen]

Alpine A523 most likely does not meet the 2024 roll hoop crash test. [Unless Alpine significantly overbuilt the hoop and the way it feeds into the monocoque compared to the 2023 requirement.]

[TeamKoolGreen]

It is unreal how consistent Alpine managed to keep its performance through the biggest technical regulations change in the history of F1. And then they completely blow it over 1 winter when the technical regs hardly changed at all. Maybe they can do a McLaren and fix this car with a couple big upgrades. But now the designers of the car are gone.

I just watched the DTS episode on Alpine. And how they fired Otmar because they were only 4th.

[yepp4]

All previous technical regulations changes weren't 100% ruled by the budget cap and I think Renault didn't want to put more than the expected cap (even Cyril said that), but to be fair the A522 wasn't such a bad car. The next big change in 2026 will be the first to be fully under the budget cap...

In the meantime the people responsible for the current car probably left because of the big failure it is, they saw it was flawed during development and probably had to go back to a previous iteration to take another route in the development and lost several months in the process, not sure they can repeat the McLaren fix. They are lucky that the midfield is pretty tight, it's possible that they can come back around Racing Bulls level depending on how much budget they have left to develop this year.

On the Otmar topic, I think they fired Otmar because he was at the head of the team when the whole Alonso/Piastri story unfolded and lost both drivers, announcing a driver already signed by Mclaren, they really looked like amateurs, he showed 0 sign of leadership and wasn't good at managing drivers in '23, the team made quite a few operational errors under him too and ultimately showed 0 sign of progress and went from 4th to 6th. Anyway, they need to stop shuffling team principals and let Famin cook !

[Jambier]

The next big change in 2026 will be the first to be fully under the budget cap...
Anyway, they need to stop shuffling team principals and let Famin cook !

Yes but this is my fear:

- They have to build a new engine for 2026. On that side they need to be agressive, but there are no red flags
- They need to build a new car for 2026

On that second topic I'm more worried, they need to start now, hence they need to have a new and good technical team
Issue is that if Famin is building a new technical team and hiring people, they will not be ready to work until too late.

Then, in 2026 it will be again a disappointment

[monkeyboy1976]

I would not be at all surprised if Renault will sell up to Andretti before 2026

[factory_p]

I would not be at all surprised if Renault will sell up to Andretti before 2026

I would be surprised.

F1 is as good a business it has ever been. They got fresh cash investment last year. The Concorde agreement has improved massively over the last years. The financial result is up every year, so the cash payback to the team will likely follow. So I don't see Renault selling to anyone anytime soon.

[yepp4]

Luca De Meo was in the paddock last weekend with some top group managers and said they were in it for the long term and didn't want to sell (but we never know until it happens ), they are also eyeing the US market so it's a good way to gain brand awareness.

- They have to build a new engine for 2026. On that side they need to be agressive, but there are no red flags
- They need to build a new car for 2026

On that second topic I'm more worried, they need to start now, hence they need to have a new and good technical team
Issue is that if Famin is building a new technical team and hiring people, they will not be ready to work until too late.

Yes, on the engine side we can have a good surprise as they have a couple of assets: Famin knows how to drive a technical team to build an engine and they also have Eric Meignan, who worked at Mercedes Powertrains as engineer then director and who worked at Ferrari on their latest engine.

I have the same fear on the car, they don't seem to know what they were doing during the development and it will take time to see the results of the new org... hopefully the new simulator will help.

[monkeyboy1976]

I would not be at all surprised if Renault will sell up to Andretti before 2026

I would be surprised.

F1 is as good a business it has ever been. They got fresh cash investment last year. The Concorde agreement has improved massively over the last years. The financial result is up every year, so the cash payback to the team will likely follow. So I don't see Renault selling to anyone anytime soon.

The trouble is the negative impact on their brand cannot continue for ever

[JordanMugen]

but to be fair the A522 wasn't such a bad car.

It was a good car!

I wonder why Alpine-Renault weren't able to develop it and add performance to it and move it up the grid?

With the engine of the A522 being powerful but unreliable, there should have been plenty of scope to do reliability upgrades. I don't understand how the engine fell behind on power.

Did the Alpine team err in concentrating on making (unnecessary?) architectural changes to the car for the A524, instead of concentrating on developments to add performance? Or was Harman correct in claiming the A523's architecture was maximised and it had no more scope for development?

On the Otmar topic, I think they fired Otmar because he was at the head of the team when the whole Alonso/Piastri story unfolded and lost both drivers, announcing a driver already signed by Mclaren, they really looked like amateurs

This is true!

Why not pay out Ocon and promptly confirm an Alonso/Piastri 2023 driver lineup in March 2022?!

Is it because Ocon is French?

The Concorde agreement has improved massively over the last years.

I like how it is still called the Concorde agreement, even though the Concorde doesn't fly anymore and hasn't for some time.

The Concorde shows that French-British projects like the Concorde or Benetton-Renault can work very well in any case!

[K1Plus]

but to be fair the A522 wasn't such a bad car.

It was a good car!

I wonder why Alpine-Renault weren't able to develop it and add performance to it and move it up the grid?

With the engine of the A522 being powerful but unreliable, there should have been plenty of scope to do reliability upgrades. I don't understand how the engine fell behind on power.

Did the Alpine team err in concentrating on making (unnecessary?) architectural changes to the car for the A524, instead of concentrating on developments to add performance? Or was Harman correct in claiming the A523's architecture was maximised and it had no more scope for development?

On the Otmar topic, I think they fired Otmar because he was at the head of the team when the whole Alonso/Piastri story unfolded and lost both drivers, announcing a driver already signed by Mclaren, they really looked like amateurs

This is true!

Why not pay out Ocon and promptly confirm an Alonso/Piastri 2023 driver lineup in March 2022?!

Is it because Ocon is French?

The Concorde agreement has improved massively over the last years.

I like how it is still called the Concorde agreement, even though the Concorde doesn't fly anymore and hasn't for some time.

The Concorde shows that French-British projects like the Concorde or Benetton-Renault can work very well in any case!

The A522 was a car that didn't excel in any area, but it was an all-rounder. The A523 departed from it somewhat, with the jagged front wings we saw last year and bodywork. The cooling got worse, as evident by their Monza performance, because in 2022 they were the 5th fastest car at Monza. The A524 is a car the team doesn't understand why or how.
Why couldn't they develop the 2022 car well, I don't know. But it seems that not a good future is being written for Team Enstone.