Refueling Days?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Il Leone
Il Leone
0
Joined: 13 Mar 2024, 18:00

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Regarding teammates, how did the teams decide on which driver ran heavier or lighter? Did they take it in turns, was it decided on championship position, a flick of a coin?

User avatar
SiLo
132
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Il Leone wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 14:32
Regarding teammates, how did the teams decide on which driver ran heavier or lighter? Did they take it in turns, was it decided on championship position, a flick of a coin?
Some took it in turns, some have a number 1 driver, some did it on championship position, some let the drivers decide.
Felipe Baby!

Il Leone
Il Leone
0
Joined: 13 Mar 2024, 18:00

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Regarding a circuit like Monaco, I'm not sure what I would prefer, surely they all tried to go as long as possible?

f1isgood
f1isgood
1
Joined: 31 Oct 2022, 19:52
Location: Continental Europe

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

SiLo wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 14:31
f1isgood wrote:
14 Mar 2024, 23:02
Refueling era was extremely confusing at least from my memories. Hard to follows what the hell was going on, and none of it made sense. The current era is quite good relatively speaking. Although I do wonder what F1 w/ DRS and refueling would look like
I grew up watching this era and never found it confusing, I'm never sure why so many say this. Refuelling wasn't some complex thing to work out.
I was just too young to understand F1 I'd have to think.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Il Leone wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 17:04
Regarding a circuit like Monaco, I'm not sure what I would prefer, surely they all tried to go as long as possible?
was this race if wet ever won by not refueling ?

fuel capacity was first limited in 1973 - to 250 litres
(eg the dominant 1950/1 Alfa Romeos carried up to 68 gallons of methanol and refueled twice in c.320 miles)
the refueling option was rarely chosen after the shorter-race pump fuel rules from 1958 (if tyre life was adequate)

in late 1979 Brabham started (again) designing around the DFV (needing 38 gallons of fuel) - the BT49D
but then their BMW turbo engine initially needed 47 gallons (and more later)
this was the 1982 BT50 - the novelty of refueling gave the Brabham-BMW a lot of exposure (before the engine failed)

in 1984 fuel capacity was cut to 220 litres - and refueling was banned (fuel quantity then becoming rule-limited)
for 1989 F1 became NA-only and fuel capacity became 195 litres
refueling was reintroduced in 1994, then banned from 2010
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 15 Mar 2024, 21:56, edited 3 times in total.

stewie325
stewie325
0
Joined: 18 Nov 2007, 19:18

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

SiLo wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 16:23
Il Leone wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 14:32
Regarding teammates, how did the teams decide on which driver ran heavier or lighter? Did they take it in turns, was it decided on championship position, a flick of a coin?
Some took it in turns, some have a number 1 driver, some did it on championship position, some let the drivers decide.
There was definitely a pattern sometimes.

- Kimi almost always went longer in the first stint by 1-3 laps, and used the overlap strategy effectively. It was something of a signature move - e.g. France, Silverstone, China, Brazil 2007.
- Heikki was also fueled longer than Hamilton most times when teammates, but I had the feeling it was less of a choice. Fuel-corrected he was often a match or even faster than Hamilton in qualifying, but McLaren chose to give the latter a better starting position.

These two cases are an example of why refuelling rewarded good drivers. Kimi could qualify well enough and keep up pace despite having a weight disadvantage, then churn out fast laps when others had pitted. It also needed better tire management until the overlap started. Heikki qualified well fuel-corrected, but didn't have the same success in the race.

Nowadays without refuelling, the overlap is pretty much dead and it's a case of who will blink first to get the undercut. Using an undercut, it feels like there's less skill involved and most of the time advantage comes from having fresher tires.

User avatar
SiLo
132
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

stewie325 wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 20:46
SiLo wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 16:23
Il Leone wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 14:32
Regarding teammates, how did the teams decide on which driver ran heavier or lighter? Did they take it in turns, was it decided on championship position, a flick of a coin?
Some took it in turns, some have a number 1 driver, some did it on championship position, some let the drivers decide.
There was definitely a pattern sometimes.

- Kimi almost always went longer in the first stint by 1-3 laps, and used the overlap strategy effectively. It was something of a signature move - e.g. France, Silverstone, China, Brazil 2007.
- Heikki was also fueled longer than Hamilton most times when teammates, but I had the feeling it was less of a choice. Fuel-corrected he was often a match or even faster than Hamilton in qualifying, but McLaren chose to give the latter a better starting position.

These two cases are an example of why refuelling rewarded good drivers. Kimi could qualify well enough and keep up pace despite having a weight disadvantage, then churn out fast laps when others had pitted. It also needed better tire management until the overlap started. Heikki qualified well fuel-corrected, but didn't have the same success in the race.

Nowadays without refuelling, the overlap is pretty much dead and it's a case of who will blink first to get the undercut. Using an undercut, it feels like there's less skill involved and most of the time advantage comes from having fresher tires.
Honestly, I preferred the refuelling days, I liked the strategy and that it was hard to overtake. It was a gamble on qualifying performance NOT to get stuck behind someone. I think if the aero rules had allowed much closer racing, refuelling would have been far more exciting for a viewer.

I could be entirely blinded by rose tinted glasses however.
Felipe Baby!

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
46
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 19:17
Il Leone wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 17:04
Regarding a circuit like Monaco, I'm not sure what I would prefer, surely they all tried to go as long as possible?
was this race if wet ever won by not refueling ?
Not 100% sure, but i think in 96. Olivier Panis, the eventual winner stopped once for tyres, but i think they didn't refuel the car. The average speed was so low because of the rain that they didn't even make it over the entire distance in the 2 hour limit.

myurr
myurr
9
Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

SiLo wrote:
15 Mar 2024, 21:19
Honestly, I preferred the refuelling days, I liked the strategy and that it was hard to overtake. It was a gamble on qualifying performance NOT to get stuck behind someone. I think if the aero rules had allowed much closer racing, refuelling would have been far more exciting for a viewer.

I could be entirely blinded by rose tinted glasses however.
I remember that we used to pray for rain each race as it was the only way to have any on track action. The biggest problem was that a light car with old tyres was almost always a lot faster than a heavy car (after refuelling) with new tyres, so there was an overcut effect at every race. This meant drivers were constantly trying to extend their stint - lifting and coasting. It was so bad that they wouldn't even risk trying to overtake on track as it meant using more fuel to attack the driver in front. Instead they did all they could to extend their stint and overtake in the pits.

In my view the next biggest problem was that teams couldn't really react to strategy during the race. At the moment you can trade an early stop for potential track position with an undercut. You get fresh tyres, can push on those fresh tyres to gain a second or two on the car ahead, and perhaps its enough to get past.

But then that other car gets the chance to react. They can pit the next lap to try and minimise the losses to keep position. They can extend the stint to get a tyre advantage for the next stint that they can use to try and overtake on track to get the position back. The car that pitted first may also have pitted too early, so they will run out of tyre life at the end of the race giving a dramatic showdown.

With refuelling your strategy is baked in. You'll almost never pit earlier than you have to as you want to maximise the time the car is light at the end of a stint. You can't come in early to get fresh tyres and try for an undercut as you'll be slower. You can't extend beyond the lap you are fuelled to. In a multi-stop race you can short fuel to gain track position, but you'll have a longer pitstop next time around, and all that "action" takes place in the pits and pit wall, without a huge amount of visibility for fans.

Refuelling produced terrible racing before, and most fans were counting down the days until it was scrapped once it was announced it was gone. Safety and cost seemed to be the excuse, where at the time the real reason was Bernie wanted to make the races more interesting as they were dull processions at the time with limited on track action.

maxxer
maxxer
1
Joined: 13 May 2013, 12:01

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Just remember that in the refueling times there was no speed limit in the pit only few years it came into effect.
Also the refuelling installations where costing a fortune and there was a risk of spilling. Thats when the flaps came.
Now also you have the regulations with fuel flow and such so even if you can refuel you can have only so much.
So start the race with 10kg and refuel 9 times ? The only advantage would be the difference between 100kg of fuel or 10kg.
And from 2026 this is going down to only 70kg of fuel that is no more then a few jerry cans of fuel

User avatar
JordanMugen
82
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

The refueling days were awful. People forget how dull the average race was back then...

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
17 Mar 2024, 14:23
The refueling days were awful. People forget how dull the average race was back then...
With the pit lane limit, lack of tyre choice and small % of total weight saved it would not be worth doing today unless the car runs underweight for a section of the race, which would disqualify it
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Vinlarr89
Vinlarr89
13
Joined: 27 Feb 2023, 14:32

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
17 Mar 2024, 14:23
The refueling days were awful. People forget how dull the average race was back then...

Sorry but completely disagree. I’ve been re watching the 2003 & 2004 seasons as they’re all on YouTube.

The fact that they qualified with the starting fuel load meant that most cars towards the front of the grid would go max 10 laps before pitting in a very light trim from the start line.

This meant Schumi would normally be pushing 8-9 quali laps from the start till first pit to open up a gap.

The strategies were more interesting and the power of the overlap was so much greater as the cars were at their lightest whilst the cars coming back out were heavy.

Modern day F1 is all about managing degregation. The undercut is so powerful that it creates a domino effect and everyone pits to avoid getting undercut, and difference in strategies is very limited.

I’d take refuelling back in a heartbeat, the only downside is the slow pit stops.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

It was easier than now. The lap time could be calculated for every fuel load, because the drivers would go flat out and tire wear wasn’t really an issue.

Nowadays, for a strategy to work , drivers need to keep a certain delta AND than keep those tires alive as calculated.

Watto
Watto
3
Joined: 10 Mar 2022, 15:12

Re: Refueling Days?

Post

Mixed feelings on this one part of me would like to ssee it the other maybe it just becomes even more a tactical removing more potential over taking on the track and hope your fuel strategy could do it in the pits.