2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[NathanOlder]

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

What the hell man? So being ahead while side by side gives you the right to squeeze the other car? You know that's not how it works.

Thats exactly how it works. Look at all the incidents over the last 5 years, on the exit you can run someone off the circuit.

It all flaired up with Lewis and Nico, then Max in Austria against Charles, both times the stewards allow the lead car on inside to run right out to the edge of the track and force the other driver to back off, or go off.

[N21]

How is this still a topic. FIA deems Verstappen mostly to blame. He would have got a 10 sec penalty but because he was out he receives a 3 place grid penalty. End of story.

Everyone going over the rules: you don’t know better than the FIA.

Regarding Max and Lewis: both drivers race to the limit and take split second decisions. They will not yield because both want to become WDC. Ask Bottas how many WDC titles yielding has given him. All is easy to judge from your pc/phone an hour/day later.

Just glad that Hamilton is okay and very thankful for the Halo.

[DiogoBrand]

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

What the hell man? So being ahead while side by side gives you the right to squeeze the other car? You know that's not how it works.

Someone should let Verstappen know that then, seen as he's done it time after time this season.

I know and even I have said before I'm not a fan of Max and I'm a huge Hamilton admirer(because somehow that seems relevant to some people in this kind of discussion). I think as much as anyone else that Max is a dirty driver when it comes to fighting for position. But when you're discussing an incident it's pointless to bring up a driver's history.
For example, my controversial opinion a few years ago was that Ocon was not guilty for crashing with Max in Brazil.
I just don't see a reason to be biased in this sort of situation. (Everyone's biased even though they like to think they're not, I just try to keep it to a minimum).

[DiogoBrand]

How is this still a topic. FIA deems Verstappen mostly to blame. He would have got a 10 sec penalty but because he was out he receives a 3 place grid penalty. End of story.

Everyone going over the rules: you don’t know better than the FIA.

Regarding Max and Lewis: both drivers race to the limit and take split second decisions. They will not yield because both want to become WDC. Ask Bottas how many WDC titles yielding has given him. All is easy to judge from your pc/phone an hour/day later.

Just glad that Hamilton is okay and very thankful for the Halo.

Yeah yeah the FIA knows best. They're very well know for their consistent and fair decisions on every incident.

[N21]

How is this still a topic. FIA deems Verstappen mostly to blame. He would have got a 10 sec penalty but because he was out he receives a 3 place grid penalty. End of story.

Everyone going over the rules: you don’t know better than the FIA.

Regarding Max and Lewis: both drivers race to the limit and take split second decisions. They will not yield because both want to become WDC. Ask Bottas how many WDC titles yielding has given him. All is easy to judge from your pc/phone an hour/day later.

Just glad that Hamilton is okay and very thankful for the Halo.

Yeah yeah the FIA knows best. They're very well know for their consistent and fair decisions on every incident.

Well if you’re biased it might seem inconsistent because then you would think your favorite driver is mistreated by the FIA.

I’m a Max fan and I would also say that he overestimated the situation. He is for the most part responsible and receives a penalty. I however refuse to believe that all this was intentional.

[f1jcw]

How is this still a topic. FIA deems Verstappen mostly to blame. He would have got a 10 sec penalty but because he was out he receives a 3 place grid penalty. End of story.

Everyone going over the rules: you don’t know better than the FIA.

Regarding Max and Lewis: both drivers race to the limit and take split second decisions. They will not yield because both want to become WDC. Ask Bottas how many WDC titles yielding has given him. All is easy to judge from your pc/phone an hour/day later.

Just glad that Hamilton is okay and very thankful for the Halo.

Yeah yeah the FIA knows best. They're very well know for their consistent and fair decisions on every incident.

Well if you’re biased it might seem inconsistent because then you would think your favorite driver is mistreated by the FIA.

I’m a Max fan and I would also say that he overestimated the situation. He is for the most part responsible and receives a penalty. I however refuse to believe that all this was intentional.

You would have thought the stewards could have organised a meeting and said this stops now or else.

To add, this meeting is with Fia and both lewis and max

[Roman]

I am happy that either of the pilots seems to be ok and that we finally have another Prost-Senna battle. Most exciting season since a long time!
Apart from that I just wanted to pint out that from my point of view this accident was kind of freakish. I cannot remember seeing a f1 car on top of another one in an accident like this. Yes, open wheeled cars tend to lift off under the right circumstances but usually it is front wheel against back wheel and not like yesterday. Impossible that VER somehow wanted to injure HAM.

[N21]

Yeah yeah the FIA knows best. They're very well know for their consistent and fair decisions on every incident.

Well if you’re biased it might seem inconsistent because then you would think your favorite driver is mistreated by the FIA.

I’m a Max fan and I would also say that he overestimated the situation. He is for the most part responsible and receives a penalty. I however refuse to believe that all this was intentional.

You would have thought the stewards could have organised a meeting and said this stops now or else.

To add, this meeting is with Fia and both lewis and max

Yes such a meeting should indeed take place or should have taken place already if you ask me

[El Scorchio]

What the hell man? So being ahead while side by side gives you the right to squeeze the other car? You know that's not how it works.

Someone should let Verstappen know that then, seen as he's done it time after time this season.

I know and even I have said before I'm not a fan of Max and I'm a huge Hamilton admirer(because somehow that seems relevant to some people in this kind of discussion). I think as much as anyone else that Max is a dirty driver when it comes to fighting for position. But when you're discussing an incident it's pointless to bring up a driver's history.
For example, my controversial opinion a few years ago was that Ocon was not guilty for crashing with Max in Brazil.
I just don't see a reason to be biased in this sort of situation. (Everyone's biased even though they like to think they're not, I just try to keep it to a minimum).

TBH it's quite refreshing that we're able to have a reasonable debate, even if not agreeing!

So I'd say that in all those situations, whether leading or being behind in the championship, Hamilton has 'done the decent thing' and pulled out of the move to run over curbs or off track, often to his own cost, to avoid contact with Verstappen in a risky or lost cause situation. Most recently turn 4 on lap 1 of the same race yesterday. I don't it's unreasonable to expect Verstappen to also follow these 'rules of engagement' that he himself established and for Hamilton to have a degree of trust that Verstappen would do the decent thing- as he does- and practice what he preaches when the shoe is on the other foot. Verstappen had the choice at any moment to back out of the move and live to fight another day, but chose not to, and was perfectly willing to collide. He made zero effort to avoid that happening because he would rather ensure neither finishes the race than yield the position and face losing WDC points to his rival.

[Roo]

So I'd say that in all those situations, whether leading or being behind in the championship, Hamilton has 'done the decent thing' and pulled out of the move to run over curbs or off track, often to his own cost, to avoid contact with Verstappen in a risky or lost cause situation. Most recently turn 4 on lap 1 of the same race yesterday. I don't it's unreasonable to expect Verstappen to also follow these 'rules of engagement' that he himself established and for Hamilton to have a degree of trust that Verstappen would do the decent thing- as he does- and practice what he preaches when the shoe is on the other foot. Verstappen had the choice at any moment to back out of the move and live to fight another day, but chose not to, and was perfectly willing to collide. He made zero effort to avoid that happening because he would rather ensure neither finishes the race than yield the position and face losing WDC points to his rival.

That is a fair summary

[Fulcrum]

Was Bottas' drive really anything special though? He started from P19, which became P18 after Tsunoda started from pitlane. Then when GIO went round it became P17. He then overtook some really uncompetitive and slow cars which really didn't stand a chance against him.
The only 2 semi-competitive cars he overtook were both ferraris, but those were very slow on straights and he was on faster tyre.
He was then unable to overtake Perez who didn't have that good pace and only got podium via 5s penalty.
Meh..

By that logic most drivers were mediocre.

Overtaking appeared to be very difficult this weekend.

This probably contributed to the coming together between Verstappen and Hamilton, as both new it might be their only chance to get ahead.

[Just_a_fan]

So I'd say that in all those situations, whether leading or being behind in the championship, Hamilton has 'done the decent thing' and pulled out of the move to run over curbs or off track, often to his own cost, to avoid contact with Verstappen in a risky or lost cause situation. Most recently turn 4 on lap 1 of the same race yesterday. I don't it's unreasonable to expect Verstappen to also follow these 'rules of engagement' that he himself established and for Hamilton to have a degree of trust that Verstappen would do the decent thing- as he does- and practice what he preaches when the shoe is on the other foot. Verstappen had the choice at any moment to back out of the move and live to fight another day, but chose not to, and was perfectly willing to collide. He made zero effort to avoid that happening because he would rather ensure neither finishes the race than yield the position and face losing WDC points to his rival.

That's what annoyed me about Max's interview after the incident. He stood there and said "we have to work together in such situations" and other trite nonsense, but when he's in the position to force someone off track then he does it without a thought.

In Silverstone, before the big shunt, Hamilton was trying to go around the outside, realised the door would be closed on him by Max and backed out. In Monza, lap 1, same thing - Hamilton had a go and then took avoiding action when Max just drove across and pushed him off track.

When Max is the one trying the move, suddenly it's all "he should work with me so we can both make the corner", "he should have gone right and then he'd have been better on to the next straight anyway".

Why didn't Max go through the chicane on Hamilton's gearbox and then used the tow in to turn 4 like many others did? Because he absolutely had to make the move in turn 1. No thought of what might happen in the next few seconds or in the period after that corner.

Max has all the speed etc., to be a multiple champion, but his approach to everyone else on the track is not a good one. He's got away with barging and bullying other drivers. Well this year that's not happening so easily and he's finding out that it goes wrong for him as often as it goes right.

[langedweil]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

[henry]

I’d be interested to know what the consensus is on what constitutes “giving room” in the Hamilton/Verstappen situation.

A driver is considered to be on the track if any part of a tyre is in contact with the white line. So even if a driver has his wheels right up to the line the other driver can still be “on the track” if they are on the line. This is, of course, assuming that there is space outside the white line. So you cant do this if there is a wall just outside the white line.

In the case of turn 2 it might be thought that the orange sausage kerb acts like a wall defining the usable track and if Hamilton was 2M from the sausage kerb he would be giving room.

Turn 2 is particularly tight. I measured the radius to the outside of the sausage at about 10m. So Verstappen would need to negotiate a turn of radius 11m and Hamilton 13m. Simple physics say that to negotiate the turn their speeds would need to be in the ratio of the square of these radii and Verstappen’s speed would need to be two thirds of Hamilton’s. In reality Hamilton could take a slightly wider line and Verstappen would need to be prepared to take a tight line so he might have needed to be at 50% of Hamilton’s speed.

So if Hamilton wasn’t 2M from the sausage kerb some fault was his. And if Verstappen was not reducing speed relative to Hamilton just before they collided it would be an indication that he was not intending to assume a wider turn and hence risked a collision.

I suspect the Stewards thought the latter was the case and hence the penalty.

[Roo]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

I'm not sure what the images are trying to say. Were they alongside each other at the start of the corner?