2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[El Scorchio]

That's what annoyed me about Max's interview after the incident. He stood there and said "we have to work together in such situations" and other trite nonsense, but when he's in the position to force someone off track then he does it without a thought.

I also found it incredibly hypocritical that the most unyielding and ruthless driver on the grid would stand there and protest/complain about someone else not yielding in a situation where he never does. He seems to want to have his cake and eat it all the time. Even Horner couldn't really justify this one.

[Gillian]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

Was waiting for someone to post this, thanks.

Hamilton chose not to give room to Verstappen while he could have. But calling it a race incident is not enough for the "fans".

[dans79]

I also found it incredibly hypocritical that the most unyielding and ruthless driver on the grid would stand there and protest/complain about someone else not yielding in a situation where he never does.

That's what you get when you take a 17 year old, and put them under the guidance of Horner and Marko for several years!

[Just_a_fan]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

The comparison images with the same corner at the start of lap 1 are interesting but misleading. In the run in to the chicane on lap 1, the Mercedes and McLaren were side-by-side the whole time. So Hamilton's track position was dictated by the McLaren fully alongside him the whole time. As they approached the second part of the chicane, the McLaren realised that he was in a squeeze position and played safe by backing out of it and staying off the sausage kerb. During Max's attempt, Max came from behind and tried to drive around the outside. Different dynamic.

[Just_a_fan]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

Was waiting for someone to post this, thanks.

Hamilton chose not to give room to Verstappen while he could have. But calling it a race incident is not enough for the "fans".

The images are snap shots that ignore what was happening before the corner. It looks like it was the same situation but it absolutely wasn't because the dynamics of the two situations was different.

[Gillian]

That's correct, Hamilton gave room in that instance but he squeezed Verstappen as much as he could at the same point. Verstappen had way more speed also.

Racing incident.

[Roo]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

The comparison images with the same corner at the start of lap 1 are interesting but misleading. In the run in to the chicane on lap 1, the Mercedes and McLaren were side-by-side the whole time. So Hamilton's track position was dictated by the McLaren fully alongside him the whole time. As they approached the second part of the chicane, the McLaren realised that he was in a squeeze position and played safe by backing out of it and staying off the sausage kerb. During Max's attempt, Max came from behind and tried to drive around the outside. Different dynamic.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 3-57-1.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... _HiRes.jpg

Glad you put these images; it shows that the context for each is very different to suggest LH and MV is the same is wholly inaccurate.

[Just_a_fan]

That's correct, Hamilton gave room in that instance but he squeezed Verstappen as much as he could at the same point. Verstappen had way more speed also.

Racing incident.

It wasn't about "giving room". The McLaren was always there all the way round the corner. Max attacked around the outside. He wasn't alongside on the approach, and he tried to carry more speed around the outside. Hamilton had chosen his line on the basis that Max was way back and would have to give way. But Max, of course, didn't and effectively tried to dive bomb in to turn 2. Different dynamic.

[dans79]

I don't know why some people can't grasp the concept that you have to be alongside your competitor at the right time to be entitled to space.

To be entitled to space, you have to have overlap before or just as you're entering the braking zone, not when you're deep into it. That's why dive bombs almost always end in an accident and a penalty for the dive bomber. The dive bomber didn't achieve overlap until deep into the braking zone, and they have to hope the other driver isn't already commited or saw them.

It gets even more complicated when you have a tight complex like turn 1 and 2. Turn 2 has no braking zone, and your line entering turn 1 pretty much dictates your line exiting turn 1 and entering turn 2.

[DiogoBrand]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

[PlatinumZealot]

That is the key, Just a fan!! The end of the braking zone is where judgement begins for a corner. And that reference needs to be applied consistently for all corners.

The driver that was closer to the racing line after the braking zone dictates the line. In chicane the line cuts across the track so it was a closing gap. Max had no business going there really.

In Silverstone Max had the line, Lewis was alongside but not enough to shove Max wide, he recognized that and he duly backed out. The problem arised when Mad chopped in too early. But at the end of the day the ruling wen in favour of Max because he simply had more right to the line. Here in Monza we should be impartial and apply the same.

Stewards made their ruling, Horner and Marko seemed to accept without protest which is really unusual for them. Dead horse is dead. Discussion has served it's purpose. No one is changing their minds. Let's move on.

[Just_a_fan]

The deliberate crashing framing is really insane, especially when fed by Toto's "tactical foul" remark.
Apart from the ontrack shizzles I do feel this collective blaming&shaming based on confabulations is a worrying by-product of the current online communities. Luckily, some ppl however do understand unbiased context, someone like Alonso for instance.

I can understand both points of view, and imho neither is right or wrong; it's just two lads that don't give way.
Anyway, as to lines ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GERWnWQAE ... name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_GESJJXoAk ... name=small

The comparison images with the same corner at the start of lap 1 are interesting but misleading. In the run in to the chicane on lap 1, the Mercedes and McLaren were side-by-side the whole time. So Hamilton's track position was dictated by the McLaren fully alongside him the whole time. As they approached the second part of the chicane, the McLaren realised that he was in a squeeze position and played safe by backing out of it and staying off the sausage kerb. During Max's attempt, Max came from behind and tried to drive around the outside. Different dynamic.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 3-57-1.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... _HiRes.jpg

Glad you put these images; it shows that the context for each is very different to suggest LH and MV is the same is wholly inaccurate.

I've taken the second image out because I realise it's not from this year. The first image is, however.

Here is the correct sequence:






We can see that the McLaren was marginally ahead to start with, they drive around turn 1 in parallel and then in to turn 2 again in parallel. On exit of turn 2, the McLaren has to crawl around the inside and the Mercedes gets a better run out of the corner.

Of interest to note is what is going on immediately behind them with the Ferrari and the Alfa. Does that look familiar? Note him mounting the sausage kerb.

Compare the incident and Max's position relative to Hamilton on approach and how it differs relative to the McLaren's position:




By such fine margins of positioning are crashes made.

[Gillian]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

Well said.

[Just_a_fan]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

[DiogoBrand]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

I agree 100%, but you can't consider his history when judging one incident.