2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[flmkane]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

I agree 100%, but you can't consider his history when judging one incident.

Say that again but change Max Verstappen to Pastor Maldonado.

[Oleo]

The problem is people keep mixing things up. There are 2 relevant moments of giving space. All of this is clearly and accurately explained by driver61 on youtube.
The first is in turn 1 and turn 4 in the first lap:
When passing on the outside you need to be ahead or at least fully equal to have a right to space on cornerexit as the outside passing car. Otherwise the inside driver can dictate the line and you have to back out.
Verstappen is allowed to and always does take all the space on cornerexit, when he is the defending party and is ahead, as he does in both Imola and turn 4 at Monza. Hamilton however makes the mistake of leaving space on cornerexit in turn 1, because he prefers not to compromise his turn 2. He should have taken all the space, forcing Verstappen to back out.

Now comes the second moment of giving space, turn 2 and turn 5 in the second lap. Turn 5 isnt relevant as the overtake has already failed.
Now that the space is given, Verstappen has accepted the space and manages to be more than halfway alongside coming up at turn 2. So turn 2 is a situation where a driver is overtaking on the inside. If at corner entry and apex you are more than halfway alongside the opponent, you have a right to space in that corner and on corner exit, you should probably leave a cars width on exit for the other car. Mercedes themselves clearly agree with this, as they point this out in their silverstone debrief on youtube (where they mistakenly ignore that Hamilton is behind (frontwheel next to rearwheel) at apex.).

Now that Verstappen has managed to initiate the overtake, Hamilton is not leaving enough space and takes a line that leaves about a tyre width of space between his car and the white line.
So its clear that Verstappen goes for a very opportunistic move and a gap thats smallish and at a bad angle and Hamilton closes the door at the wrong moment. Both are to blame and it is a racing incident.

[f1jcw]

you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

Seriously, this is stupid, ofcourse you should.
This isn't playing marbles here, this is a fast sport that drivers, spectators and marshalls can die in.
The consequences are real and if drivers can not conduct themselves in a adult manner they need banning from the track.

[Hoffman900]

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

I agree 100%, but you can't consider his history when judging one incident.

Say that again but change Max Verstappen to Pastor Maldonado.

Or Romain Grosjean. It took him nearly dying for people to look past that Spa crash.

[dans79]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

I agree 100%, but you can't consider his history when judging one incident.

The stewards can't, everyone else can!

[Just_a_fan]

It looks to me like the issue some people here are trying to bring up is: When Max fights dirty and squeezes Hamilton, Lewis yields so they can avoid crashing, but when it's the other way around and it's Hamilton pushing Verstappen, like in Silverstone and Monza, Max doesn't take avoiding action and lets the accident happen.
The issue with this approach is, you shouldn't judge an incident by what happened on another occasion and you shouldn't punish a driver for "not avoiding" a crash.

The issue is that one driver generally tries to avoid incidents, the other doesn't but then claims that "we need to work together" etc. when it goes wrong. There's plenty of examples of them racing together where Hamilton has backed out because he knows what Max is going to do to him if he hangs it around the outside. But in the same situation Max expects to be treated kindly and allowed track room. Sorry Max but you can't play it both ways. If you're happy to run people off track like that then don't expect others to give you room when the situations are reversed.

It's the double standard that irks.

I agree 100%, but you can't consider his history when judging one incident.

Tell that to your car insurance company after you make a claim and they put up your premium, or the courts when a repeat offender is being tried.

Of course you can take in to account previous incidents. If a driver does the same sort of thing in the same sort of incident time after time - whoever it might be - then it's a reasonable guide as to what they'll do next time in a similar situation.

[Gillian]

The problem is people keep mixing things up. There are 2 relevant moments of giving space. All of this is clearly and accurately explained by driver61 on youtube.
The first is in turn 1 and turn 4 in the first lap:
When passing on the outside you need to be ahead or at least fully equal to have a right to space on cornerexit as the outside passing car. Otherwise the inside driver can dictate the line and you have to back out.
Verstappen is allowed to and always does take all the space on cornerexit, when he is the defending party and is ahead, as he does in both Imola and turn 4 at Monza. Hamilton however makes the mistake of leaving space on cornerexit in turn 1, because he prefers not to compromise his turn 2. He should have taken all the space, forcing Verstappen to back out.

Now comes the second moment of giving space, turn 2 and turn 5 in the second lap. Turn 5 isnt relevant as the overtake has already failed.
Now that the space is given, Verstappen has accepted the space and manages to be more than halfway alongside coming up at turn 2. So turn 2 is a situation where a driver is overtaking on the inside. If at corner entry and apex you are more than halfway alongside the opponent, you have a right to space in that corner and on corner exit, you should probably leave a cars width on exit for the other car. Mercedes themselves clearly agree with this, as they point this out in their silverstone debrief on youtube (where they mistakenly ignore that Hamilton is behind (frontwheel next to rearwheel) at apex.).

Now that Verstappen has managed to initiate the overtake, Hamilton is not leaving enough space and takes a line that leaves about a tyre width of space between his car and the white line.
So its clear that Verstappen goes for a very opportunistic move and a gap thats smallish and at a bad angle and Hamilton closes the door at the wrong moment. Both are to blame and it is a racing incident.

Well said, agreed. Thank you for taking the time to post this.

[diffuser]

The problem is people keep mixing things up. There are 2 relevant moments of giving space. All of this is clearly and accurately explained by driver61 on youtube.
The first is in turn 1 and turn 4 in the first lap:
When passing on the outside you need to be ahead or at least fully equal to have a right to space on cornerexit as the outside passing car. Otherwise the inside driver can dictate the line and you have to back out.
Verstappen is allowed to and always does take all the space on cornerexit, when he is the defending party and is ahead, as he does in both Imola and turn 4 at Monza. Hamilton however makes the mistake of leaving space on cornerexit in turn 1, because he prefers not to compromise his turn 2. He should have taken all the space, forcing Verstappen to back out.

Now comes the second moment of giving space, turn 2 and turn 5 in the second lap. Turn 5 isnt relevant as the overtake has already failed.
Now that the space is given, Verstappen has accepted the space and manages to be more than halfway alongside coming up at turn 2. So turn 2 is a situation where a driver is overtaking on the inside. If at corner entry and apex you are more than halfway alongside the opponent, you have a right to space in that corner and on corner exit, you should probably leave a cars width on exit for the other car. Mercedes themselves clearly agree with this, as they point this out in their silverstone debrief on youtube (where they mistakenly ignore that Hamilton is behind (frontwheel next to rearwheel) at apex.).

Now that Verstappen has managed to initiate the overtake, Hamilton is not leaving enough space and takes a line that leaves about a tyre width of space between his car and the white line.
So its clear that Verstappen goes for a very opportunistic move and a gap thats smallish and at a bad angle and Hamilton closes the door at the wrong moment. Both are to blame and it is a racing incident.

Well said, agreed. Thank you for taking the time to post this.

Think those rules might be too complicated.....Atleast for me, Max and Lewis...they keep getting it wrong.

[Gillian]

...... and at a bad angle and Hamilton closes the door at the wrong moment. Both are to blame and it is a racing incident.

Well said, agreed. Thank you for taking the time to post this.

Think those rules might be too complicated.....Atleast for me, Max and Lewis...they keep getting it wrong.

I think they both know what they are doing and that's probably why they have no problem with eachother (yet). There's more animosity in this chat.

[Just_a_fan]

Similar situation to Max and Lewis happened on the first lap, between Leclerc and Giovinazzi. Gio was behind and Leclerc was ahead. See how that transpired, if done well. Both came out of Turn 2 without contact.

https://i.ibb.co/CVbKstf/italia-1.png

https://i.ibb.co/nPYFstn/italia-2.png

Interesting that you point that out. Here is what happened:




Gio was pushed out and ended up going on to the sausage kerb. But still avoided hitting Leclerc. How come he didn't get fired up and over on to Leclerc? Perhaps the speeds were lower, for example, as it was the first corner of the first lap and the bunching up naturally causes lower speeds.

So it wasn't "done well" if by that you mean it was done differently. It was lucky not to be a copy of the later crash, quite simply.

[sosic2121]

Rubbish decision by the stewards, as usual.
Max deserved a penalty, but for lap 1 incident.

[diffuser]

Well said, agreed. Thank you for taking the time to post this.

Think those rules might be too complicated.....Atleast for me, Max and Lewis...they keep getting it wrong.

I think they both know what they are doing and that's probably why they have no problem with eachother (yet). There's more animosity in this chat.

I agree but those rules are hard to police and even harder to explain to a majority of the F1 audience. Which leads to the animosity etc, etc, etc. If they would simplify it to "they have to leave room". Then it becomes easier to attribute blame. Right now it takes sometimes hours and tons of different camera angles, slow motion replay, etc,etc to get it right and still half the audience is left frustrated. Mostly cause they don't understand.

Silverstone clearly would have been Max's fault (Hamilton took away the racing line but left him space on the track). Monza would be clearly been Hamilton's fault. Also Hamilton would have probably been more willing to leave Max space on the outside knowing that if Max wouldn't have left him space on turn 2, Max would have been penalized.

Nope with current Regs Hamilton squeezes Max cause he thinks he can, legally, and to prevent from being squeeze at turn 2.

[DiogoBrand]

Seriously, this is stupid, ofcourse you should.
This isn't playing marbles here, this is a fast sport that drivers, spectators and marshalls can die in.
The consequences are real and if drivers can not conduct themselves in a adult manner they need banning from the track.

If the stewards handed race bans as often as people ask for them here, there wouldn't be anyone left to race in some occasions.

Tell that to your car insurance company after you make a claim and they put up your premium, or the courts when a repeat offender is being tried.

Of course you can take in to account previous incidents. If a driver does the same sort of thing in the same sort of incident time after time - whoever it might be - then it's a reasonable guide as to what they'll do next time in a similar situation.

First I don't know what your insurance analogy has to do with anything.
Second of all, like dans79 rightfully said to correct me, you can consider past incidents all you want, but the stewards shouldn't and penalties can't have them taken into account. So if we're discussing this incident and the penalty resulting from it, they're irrelevant.

[Ryar]

Similar situation to Max and Lewis happened on the first lap, between Leclerc and Giovinazzi. Gio was behind and Leclerc was ahead. See how that transpired, if done well. Both came out of Turn 2 without contact.

https://i.ibb.co/CVbKstf/italia-1.png

https://i.ibb.co/nPYFstn/italia-2.png

Interesting that you point that out. Here is what happened:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -44-16.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -18-15.jpg

Gio was pushed out and ended up going on to the sausage kerb. But still avoided hitting Leclerc. How come he didn't get fired up and over on to Leclerc? Perhaps the speeds were lower, for example, as it was the first corner of the first lap and the bunching up naturally causes lower speeds.

So it wasn't "done well" if by that you mean it was done differently. It was lucky not to be a copy of the later crash, quite simply.

On the contrary, 1st lap is where they dump all their battery at the start to stretch the legs. So, if anything, they are probably faster into that corner. Lewis could have given room and avoided the crash like it was with Leclerc and Gio, who "did very well". He chose not to. Quite simple.

[toraabe]

Max is stupid enough to do the move. He knows that Lewis will not back off. His fault.