2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[e30ernest]

most telling, Red Bull aren't protesting the penalty or even arguing it that I have seen!! That says it all really.

Yeah I agree here. Given how much Horner and Helmut play the media to defend Max, their silence tells a lot. It's a shut case.

[Schuttelberg]

Every time this sort of thing happens, we all just start quarrelling based on our perspective or likes and dislikes and I am not taking the high ground here, I also get carried away and think that how I saw it is correct and another person's opinion is just bias or BS.

I thought a bit more about this last night and I think the biggest problem we have currently is the rule book, not the fans and definitely not the stewards. I think we are heading for a reset in 2022 with the cars but this also needs a serious reset. We need to have clear cut rules and clear cut rules with topography detailing. Whether we interpret that as right or wrong is an endless and meaningless squabble but the grey area just eats the drivers and fans alike. We need to have a directive that prevents us fans and drivers more importantly to stop going back the years, picking out isolated incidents and use them as a precedent to do things on track. Lay down the marker and make whatever happened till 2021 in terms of ruling, redundant.

My personal point of view is that this fascination of the driver being on the inside dictating the line really needs to go. I just do not get that because what you are basically saying is that don't try and pass on the outside because you're either going to be on the run off, in the gravel or without bodywork. Where does that leave us? You must try to pass on the inside which the driver ahead is allowed to block and skilful guys will make it impossible to go down that route and unless you have a massive performance delta (whether that is through car performance or difference in tyre deg) you just aren't getting around cleanly. Let's face it, passing in Formula 1 is not straight forward and the reasons for that are another whole discussion thread by themselves but this glorification of the idea that once you're ahead and on the inside entitles you to shove the other guy off the road is the root cause of such incidents and I don't see this being the last of it in this season between these two.

I think I have already said here that both Silverstone and Monza did not warrant any sort of penalty. I would attribute blame on Hamilton for Silverstone and Monza because Silverstone is straight forward and Monza he just left enough room on the outside for Max to say 'oh there's a gap and I am entitled to it since I am enough alongside.' The blasphemy that either of those was intentional is just that, blasphemy. It's more to do with 'he's not getting past me' and that's competition, not malice.

This is my honest, not in the heat of the moment opinion and it's all well and good to change cars, weekend formats, circuits, tyres and all that yadda but there needs to be a clear cut driving code of conduct which the fans and more importantly the drivers understand. Penalise them, but the penalty should be something the fans and drivers understand and know is coming. The steward ruling should be a mere formality.

[ArcticWolfie]

most telling, Red Bull aren't protesting the penalty or even arguing it that I have seen!! That says it all really.

Yeah I agree here. Given how much Horner and Helmut play the media to defend Max, their silence tells a lot. It's a shut case.

There's no reason to appeal or keep shouting in the media, because the FIA won't change their mind anyway.

Will Buxton and Scott Mansell posted way better analyses over the accident:

[e30ernest]

There's no reason to appeal or keep shouting in the media, because the FIA won't change their mind anyway.

Horner and Helmut aren't appealing to the FIA in most times when they make noise. They do it to rile up their fans and exercise more pressure on Mercedes and Hamilton.

[Just_a_fan]

Perhaps we should remember the sage words uttered by Max's fan after Silverstone: the stewards found him guilty, move on.

Perhaps that way we can avoid a 100 page thread.

[Ryar]

That somebody is you. To win an F1 race sometimes you have to go all in. To win an F1 championship, drivers quickly learn that they have to pick their battles and take a loss when necessary. Despite Horner and co. always talking about how mature Max is, he thus far hasn't learned how to not go all in. He thinks every corner is his and every overtake attempt on him should be blocked somehow. Beyond that he is delusional. Both in Silverstone and Monza, prior to those incidents, he ran Hamilton wide. In those prior incidents Hamilton had the wisdom to back off a bit. Ironically, Max seems to forget all the times that he doesn't leave other drivers space. I guarantee that if the Monza/Silverstone situations were Hamilton vs any other reputable driver on the grid (Alonso, Vettel, Sainz, Ric, Lando, Kimi, Schumi) there wouldn't be a crash. Yet, if it was Verstappen v any of those drivers fighting for the WDC like LH, there'd probably be a similar incident.

If Max doesn't win the WDC this year despite having the best car, it'll be because of his over aggressive, all-in, never back down mentality costing him the needed points. He was quite fortunate that he landed on top of Hamilton's car.. if he had just bounced off into the gravel there Hamilton would be leading this WDC by a healthy margin, just like after Max threw away 25+ points in Silverstone.

If anything the most possible importance and weight was given to the stewards' decision. They know that their decision could alter the WDC results and that a penalty would thus be extremely harsh given the impact. Yet, they still gave Max a penalty. Despite what all of us keyboard warriors type, they still give Max a penalty. That is the final word.

Penalty is a goid precedent. It would ensure that next time when Max is ahead Lewis doesn't try the same move, like he always does. But i won't be surprised if Max gets penalized again, despite the situation is reversed as FIA seems to be in Toto's pockets. So no point using this penalty to prove Max is always wrong. That's just naive.

Lewis might try the same move, but when he does and realises that the other driver isn't going to "work together", he backs out and lives to fight another corner.

From reading the Stewards decision, Max was going too fast to make T2 without running wide anyway, so unless Lewis literally stood on the brakes and stopped, they were always going to collide. If Max had thought beyond that single complex, he would have realised that he had warmer tyres than Lewis so could follow him through, take a wider line through T2 and get a run on him down into T4....

Max was too hasty trying to make that move. The stewards agree and, most telling, Red Bull aren't protesting the penalty or even arguing it that I have seen!! That says it all really.

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

As for as stewards agree, I didn't see one single Lewis fan agreeing with stewards in Silverstone when they proclaimed it was Lewis' fault. People use stewards decision to their convenience of argument. So let that argument rest. Red Bull aren't protesting as they have believe it was racing incident and considering the history of how biased FIA is towards Mercedes, there is no point in challenging thier decision. I bet, folks at WWE manage the show better.

[_cerber1]

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

[TimW]

My personal point of view is that this fascination of the driver being on the inside dictating the line really needs to go. I just do not get that because what you are basically saying is that don't try and pass on the outside because you're either going to be on the run off, in the gravel or without bodywork. Where does that leave us? You must try to pass on the inside which the driver ahead is allowed to block and skilful guys will make it impossible to go down that route and unless you have a massive performance delta (whether that is through car performance or difference in tyre deg) you just aren't getting around cleanly. Let's face it, passing in Formula 1 is not straight forward and the reasons for that are another whole discussion thread by themselves but this glorification of the idea that once you're ahead and on the inside entitles you to shove the other guy off the road is the root cause of such incidents and I don't see this being the last of it in this season between these two.

Fully agree. If it is for this incident or Silverstone, the fact that they have to push it to the max (pun intended) to be able to overtake at all causes these incidents. If drivers would be forced to leave space on the outside if cars are partially alongside, blocking the inside will suddenly not be effective anymore.

But I think it will be quite a challenge for the drivers to adjust to such a change and make it work in practice. If a driver comes alongside, you have to brake earlier to make it possible to leave space on the outside, but if you brake earlier, the driver will come alongside....
On the inside this is not an issue, if he comes alongside, you cannot turn in, and you can just brake as late as you normally would. I guess there is a reason the rules are as they are...

[DChemTech]

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

https://ibb.co/cNZg6RN

Different cars with different reliability etc.
This is about as good as an argument as saying something like "see, more vaccinated people die from disease X" in a country where 99.9% of people has been vaccinated.

Also, the issue here is not that one driver has more DNFs or even causes more collisions than another driver. That may all well be.

[sosic2121]

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

https://ibb.co/cNZg6RN

https://youtu.be/KR48Q5U0AGA

[_cerber1]

https://youtu.be/KR48Q5U0AGA

And?

[MartijnA3]

https://ibb.co/cNZg6RN

Please break down those retirements and see how few were Max's fault.

[_cerber1]

Please break down those retirements and see how few were Max's fault.

I suggest that you do this, since you do not believe the presented photo.

[Ryar]

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

https://ibb.co/cNZg6RN

Good job. Thanks. Now please go in detail by clearing that smokescreen.

[Starkblood80]

Penalty is a goid precedent. It would ensure that next time when Max is ahead Lewis doesn't try the same move, like he always does. But i won't be surprised if Max gets penalized again, despite the situation is reversed as FIA seems to be in Toto's pockets. So no point using this penalty to prove Max is always wrong. That's just naive.

Lewis might try the same move, but when he does and realises that the other driver isn't going to "work together", he backs out and lives to fight another corner.

From reading the Stewards decision, Max was going too fast to make T2 without running wide anyway, so unless Lewis literally stood on the brakes and stopped, they were always going to collide. If Max had thought beyond that single complex, he would have realised that he had warmer tyres than Lewis so could follow him through, take a wider line through T2 and get a run on him down into T4....

Max was too hasty trying to make that move. The stewards agree and, most telling, Red Bull aren't protesting the penalty or even arguing it that I have seen!! That says it all really.

The myth of Lewis is "work togethr", "clean" driver should have ended long back. He was the only driver in the last decade and half that has gotten involved in incidents more than anyone else at the front of the field, courtesy of all those front running cars. If he would have started his career in the mid pack, his career would have ended long back. Like I have said it many times, with those dominant cars and without any pressure, he always started ahead and stayed ahead, which somehow masked his shortcomings.

As for as stewards agree, I didn't see one single Lewis fan agreeing with stewards in Silverstone when they proclaimed it was Lewis' fault. People use stewards decision to their convenience of argument. So let that argument rest. Red Bull aren't protesting as they have believe it was racing incident and considering the history of how biased FIA is towards Mercedes, there is no point in challenging thier decision. I bet, folks at WWE manage the show better.

Dear god you really do post some drivel about Hamilton dont you.