McLaren's Daniel Ricciardo has won the Italian Grand Prix ahead of team mate Lando Norris. As both title contenders again clashed and retired from the race, Valtteri Bottas had a brilliant recovery to finish third after starting from the back of the pack.
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
It's about when the car is ahead. After all, if someone dive bombs, at some point they will be "ahead" but not necessarily in a way that will allow correct transition through the corner.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
It's about when the car is ahead. After all, if someone dive bombs, at some point they will be "ahead" but not necessarily in a way that will allow correct transition through the corner.
Ok thanks, but then no overtakes allowed at corners? There are dive bombs, but there are also overtakes wich at the start look like a dive bomb, but then he can stop the car soon enough and take the racing line.
Also, they´re ruining a whole kind of overtakes. In chicanes or consecutive corners it´s usual to just earn the space at first cornet to then pass at next, but based on this rule they´re now banned?
Just as an example of illegal overtake based on that rule
If in this overtake Schumacher would have pussed Montoya out of track.... Stewards would have punished Montoya?
I can´t understand anything sincerely
Last edited by Andres125sx on 15 Sep 2021, 21:14, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
There is no rule about being alongside. Only about not crowding another car off the track. The alongside thing is just the stewards playing by feel - that's why these incidents are rarely adjudicated the same way twice.
#aerogandalf "There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
It's about when the car is ahead. After all, if someone dive bombs, at some point they will be "ahead" but not necessarily in a way that will allow correct transition through the corner.
Ok thanks, but then no overtakes allowed at corners? There are dive bombs, but there are also overtakes wich at the start look like a dive bomb, but then he can stop the car soon enough and take the racing line.
Also, they´re ruining a whole kind of overtakes. In chicanes or consecutive corners it´s usual to just earn the space at first cornet to then pass at next, but based on this rule they´re now banned?
If in this overtake Schumacher would have pussed Montoya out of track.... Stewards would have punished Montoya?
I can´t understand anything sincerely
Not all overtakes are divebombs, and if there is enough space after the apex, a mild case of divebomb might even make the corner (though compromised, giving the other car opportunity to counter), but that wasn't the case here, which is why there is the cut-off/escape road which Verstappen probably should have taken.
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
There is no rule about being alongside. Only about not crowding another car off the track. The alongside thing is just the stewards playing by feel - that's why these incidents are rarely adjudicated the same way twice.
If i understood correctly then there's internal guidelines (not the document Merc still had from Whiting but similar) and a set of previous incidents they use to judge what happened so it's not necessarily just 'feel' (let's hope )
The only mention of alongside i know of is for defending on a straight and the crowding off track you mention and there it's "significant portion alongside" where that is front wing level with rear wheels, it's not front axles being level as Andres remembered.*
I believe here it's the fact that Max only reaches that arbitrary stage of "alongside" when they start turning in, not in the braking phase (which was different for both since one just came out of the pits) - the quoted bit also relates to T1 and not the approach to T2.
* p.s.: where even is that in the rules these days? it's not sporting regs
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
It's about when the car is ahead. After all, if someone dive bombs, at some point they will be "ahead" but not necessarily in a way that will allow correct transition through the corner.
Ok thanks, but then no overtakes allowed at corners? There are dive bombs, but there are also overtakes wich at the start look like a dive bomb, but then he can stop the car soon enough and take the racing line.
Also, they´re ruining a whole kind of overtakes. In chicanes or consecutive corners it´s usual to just earn the space at first cornet to then pass at next, but based on this rule they´re now banned?
If in this overtake Schumacher would have pussed Montoya out of track.... Stewards would have punished Montoya?
I can´t understand anything sincerely
The point is that they considered that Max wasn't alongside on entry, which is correct as at the point they turned in, Lewis was well ahead. Max then attempted to drive around the outside, so he tried to force himself to be in position by the time that Lewis was transitioning to the next part of the chicane. It's fairly subtle and the line appears to be fairly narrow between being ok and not ok.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
The point is they made the reason up to penalize him, don't get me wrong - I think he fully deserved it (just as Lewis did at Silverstone, and a proper grid drop penalty, not finger wave he did get - not even a slap on the wrist...), but that wording sounds like something that got translated few times till in was written down in English, just load of BS because they didn't want to say - Max - you could have avoided it, and should have, you had an escape road but chose to launch the car from the sausage kerb - but they don't want to tell drivers how to drive the cars, they just look for a reason "in the book", hence we got this "on entry" "not significantly along side" horse crap (excuse my French)
and I don't think he planned landing on top of the Merc, that was a freak accident, he was probably aiming for a punt - a wheel bump - which was what happened and launched his rear, it was just as deliberate as Hamiltons move at Silverstone IMO (repeating, I know), the thing is - if this happens again soon - they both should get a race ban penalty - equal punishment (that supposedly cannot be done according to rules, it is either one is guiltier than the other and gets punished or none do) and a lesson to others, that would be the right thing to do, but wouldn't happen with the weak governing personalities we have there now, and the show would suffer of course, which is the most important bit...
for a while I have been thinking this - had the cars themselves not been as safe as they are now - perhaps that would make them think 5 times before driving like this, realizing that the move they do on the other car may send the other driver 6 feet under, or worse - put them in a wheelchair for the rest of their life - that is the other side of the coin when you make the cars as safe as they are now - noone thinks of the bad things that still may happen, they think they are invincible...
I think we are likely to see many more "accidents" between these two drivers going forwards. They've both made it clear they will give no quarter. The stewards decisions are largely irrelevant, both drivers know what they are doing and know the consequences.
agreed. a podium is not impossible though, but still unlikely. I think Mercedes would do wise to keep away from a new engine and instead let Lewis go for it and go for the win.
It'll be a points grabbing fest. worst case scenario (excluding a DNF), Lewis ends up P2 by driving a bit more 'restraint' so that he doesn't lose precious points: it's very likely he's going to get enough points to pass Max in the WDC anyway. I would expect a win for either Lewis, Ricciardo (again) or Norris (1st).
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
.
I'll agree Max is leading the championship, but only by 5 points he got for a race that never happened. If he had better racecraft he could be leading by considerably more.
As he would have been did he not got robbed of 50pts by being punted out ..
Sorry I´m too late, but I´m confused... I´ve just read Stewarts decision based on...
Did they change the rules stating what is considered alongside? I was assuming it was, as stated in the rules, when the front axle reach... now I´m in a doubt if it was the rear axle or the cockpit, but anycase that was certainly the case here as Max front wheel was even past the cockpit so... did they change this definition or I´m missing something?
There is no rule about being alongside. Only about not crowding another car off the track. The alongside thing is just the stewards playing by feel - that's why these incidents are rarely adjudicated the same way twice.
If i understood correctly then there's internal guidelines (not the document Merc still had from Whiting but similar) and a set of previous incidents they use to judge what happened so it's not necessarily just 'feel' (let's hope )
The only mention of alongside i know of is for defending on a straight and the crowding off track you mention and there it's "significant portion alongside" where that is front wing level with rear wheels, it's not front axles being level as Andres remembered.*
I believe here it's the fact that Max only reaches that arbitrary stage of "alongside" when they start turning in, not in the braking phase (which was different for both since one just came out of the pits) - the quoted bit also relates to T1 and not the approach to T2.
* p.s.: where even is that in the rules these days? it's not sporting regs
So the answer is yes, nowadays Montoya would have been penalized if Schumacher decided to push him off track and cause a crash. Very sensible
Politics are ruining this sport
PS: I´ve always criticized Max because of his excess of aggresiveness, but here the one pushing other driver off track was Lewis, so he was who caused the crash. That or a racing incident, but Max did nothing wrong here, he was trying to pass a slower car coming out of pits for the victory, what ANY driver would have done
There is no rule about being alongside. Only about not crowding another car off the track. The alongside thing is just the stewards playing by feel - that's why these incidents are rarely adjudicated the same way twice.
If i understood correctly then there's internal guidelines (not the document Merc still had from Whiting but similar) and a set of previous incidents they use to judge what happened so it's not necessarily just 'feel' (let's hope )
The only mention of alongside i know of is for defending on a straight and the crowding off track you mention and there it's "significant portion alongside" where that is front wing level with rear wheels, it's not front axles being level as Andres remembered.*
I believe here it's the fact that Max only reaches that arbitrary stage of "alongside" when they start turning in, not in the braking phase (which was different for both since one just came out of the pits) - the quoted bit also relates to T1 and not the approach to T2.
* p.s.: where even is that in the rules these days? it's not sporting regs
So the answer is yes, nowadays Montoya would have been penalized if Schumacher decided to push him off track and cause a crash. Very sensible
Politics are ruining this sport
PS: I´ve always criticized Max because of his excess of aggresiveness, but here the one pushing other driver off track was Lewis, so he was who caused the crash. That or a racing incident, but Max did nothing wrong here, he was trying to pass a slower car coming out of pits for the victory, what ANY driver would have done
Max did nothing wrong?
He crashed into another car, quite seriously, he went for a gap that wasn't there and should have backed off.
Schumacher probably wanted to do that but just couldn't, because Montoya's front wheel was already ahead of his front wheel completely . That allowed Montoya to control Schumi's line trough the chicane. The only thing he could do at that point was to bump front wheels. I guess he choose to do the sensible thing at let it go. Remembering stewarding from that time, Schumi wouldn't be penalized even with today's rules either, so that probably wasn't his concern anyway.
PS: I´ve always criticized Max because of his excess of aggresiveness, but here the one pushing other driver off track was Lewis, so he was who caused the crash. That or a racing incident, but Max did nothing wrong here, he was trying to pass a slower car coming out of pits for the victory, what ANY driver would have done
.
Max did nothing wrong?
He crashed into another car, quite seriously, he went for a gap that wasn't there and should have backed off.
Will people stop making excuses.
.
Is that so? I don't think so.
Hamilton left enough space at first for Max to dive in. As Max did this, Lewis kept squeezing him off and there wasn't enough room for both of them.
Lewis did this imo to force Max to cut the corner so Max got on the track before Lewis and had to give him back his position.
Max never expected Lewis to keep squeezing and when the gap wasn't wide enough, it was too late to cut the corner
and he had to go over the high curbs.
Very clever of Lewis and Max fell for it. Unfortunately for Lewis, his race also came to an end, zero points!
)
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
