2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[Gillian]

Max did nothing wrong?
He crashed into another car, quite seriously, he went for a gap that wasn't there and should have backed off.

Will people stop making excuses.

Will people learn to discuss instead of assuming anyone who disagree is wrong and making excuses?

There will never be a gap if the driver in front go from kerb to kerb, if the one overtaking must be parallel to earn the space there will be almost zero overtakes in current F1

Totally agree. That summarises it perfectly imo.

[El Scorchio]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/15/dri ... wO_f9Dqt2A

Drivers need to be discouraged from taking out rivals – Wolff

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff says Formula 1 drivers need to be discouraged from deliberately tangling with rivals to prevent them scoring points.

He made his remarks in the wake of Sunday’s collision between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, which put both drivers out of the race. Wolff originally described the move as a “tactical foul” on Verstappen’s part after he had fallen behind Hamilton during their pit stops.

“For me what we need to avoid in the future is taking each out tactically because you know you’ve lost the position,” said Wolff.

Speaking before the verdict was announced, Wolff said: “Tactical fouls in order to make sure that the other guy doesn’t win is something which you need to get under control.”

“How, I have no idea,” he added.

Does Toto accuse Max of intentionally knocking Lewis out? If that's true, if he said that, he should be ashamed of himself.

Alternatively one could also include the remainder of the quote by Wolff which softens what he said and puts it into the full context (and is in that article) - but that wouldn't paint him in such a bad light and we can't have that here now, can we?

However Wolff conceded he was more inclined to see the contact as deliberate because his sympathies lay with his own driver.

“I didn’t say that [Verstappen] was completely to blame or an absolute judgement on the incident,” said Wolff. “What I said is that one could see it as tactical foul with the bias that each of us needs to just acknowledge. We don’t want to have situations in the future where one loses the position and the only way of stopping the other one scoring is just by taking him out.

“Both of them need to leave space for each other, race each other hard, but avoid accidents. Because it was good fun until now, but we have seen a Halo that saved [Hamilton’s] life and Max had this heavy impact in Silverstone and we don’t want to come to a situation to intervene when somebody gets really hurt.”

I really don't understand the need to constantly sh*t on the "opposing" team especially when it's done with out of context or incomplete quotes from clickbait articles.

Me either. That post was dropped in as flamebait from an utterly subjective point of view. As I mentioned above, if one is being objective, then you must come to the conclusion that anyone who insinuated Silverstone or Hungary was on purpose should be ashamed of themselves as well. But of course people very conveniently forget things like that, for some reason.

[Wouter]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/15/dri ... wO_f9Dqt2A
[ .... ]
Does Toto accuse Max of intentionally knocking Lewis out? If that's true, if he said that, he should be ashamed of himself.

.
Alternatively one could also include the remainder of the quote by Wolff which softens what he said and puts it into the full context (and is in that article) - but that wouldn't paint him in such a bad light and we can't have that here now, can we?

However Wolff conceded he was more inclined to see the contact as deliberate because his sympathies lay with his own driver.

“I didn’t say that [Verstappen] was completely to blame or an absolute judgement on the incident,” said Wolff. “What I said is that one could see it as tactical foul with the bias that each of us needs to just acknowledge. We don’t want to have situations in the future where one loses the position and the only way of stopping the other one scoring is just by taking him out.

“Both of them need to leave space for each other, race each other hard, but avoid accidents. Because it was good fun until now, but we have seen a Halo that saved [Hamilton’s] life and Max had this heavy impact in Silverstone and we don’t want to come to a situation to intervene when somebody gets really hurt.”

I really don't understand the need to constantly sh*t on the "opposing" team especially when it's done with out of context or incomplete quotes from clickbait articles.

First: I am not from the "opposing" team!
Second: I never quote a whole article, thats why I posted a link. When I would deliberately hide the context, I would not posted a link!
Third: I wrote: "If that's true, if he said that, ...."

I've posted the link so anyone can read the entire text. If you read the text in its entirety, he blames Max for the crash.
And again, I don't know if this article is true.

[RZS10]

Oh c'mon ... you know what you did (even if unintentionally), there's enough people who don't click on linked articles, hell some don't even read past headlines.

The "opposing team" thing is about fans of opposing teams - you are a fan of RBR, are you not? Wolff is the principal of the opposing team to the one you support.

The answer to your own question is in the article and if you read it from a neutral point of view he did not actually accuse him of that as he relativised his initial statement - it's in the part i quoted.

Saying that he absolutely did deliberately take him out (statement of fact) is very different to "one could see it as tactical foul with the bias that each of us needs to just acknowledge" (personal feeling/opinion)

and "I didn’t say that [Verstappen] was completely to blame" ≠ 'he blames Max for the crash.'

The quotes seem to be an accumulation from sky and ORF interviews cobbled together with a clickbait headline.

There's more articles where his statements are in an even broader context.
He prefaced what he said to sky with "i'm biased so i shouldn't really say anything", when it came to blaming either driver he later referred to the stewards' decision but even before there was a verdict he didn't fully blame Max.

But of course the media will try to stoke the flames (for obvious reasons) and if you post the article and just quote the part that makes Wolff look bad you certainly don't contribute to making the forum a calmer more reasoned environment (whether intentionally or unintentionally) - even if you're "just asking questions" (yes that's a 2012 South Park reference)

And to be very blunt, what purpose would posting that selective quote from a 2.5 day old article even serve five days after the race? Why would it be of any relevance whether Wolff should hypothetically feel ashamed for things he might or might not have said?

[Just_a_fan]

Max did nothing wrong?
He crashed into another car, quite seriously, he went for a gap that wasn't there and should have backed off.

Will people stop making excuses.

Will people learn to discuss instead of assuming anyone who disagree is wrong and making excuses?

There will never be a gap if the driver in front go from kerb to kerb, if the one overtaking must be parallel to earn the space there will be almost zero overtakes in current F1

Compare to Norris / Hamilton on lap 1. Norris was alongside as they turned in and they therefore went round in parallel.

Max was basically behind as they turned and tried to accelerate around the outside. That put him behind all the way round T1. Thus he doesn't get to go for the gap in such a tight chicane. If there was 100m between corners there, Max would have been able to make the T1 move stick. But he didn't have the time / room in T1 from the point he started his move.

The corners in the first two chicanes at Monza are ridiculously close together so the move essentially needs to be completed in the braking zone of each chicane. The attacking driver needs to be significantly ahead in to the first part of the chicane.

This was shown in lap 1. T1 Norris was ahead as they turned in and thus took the line through the mid-corner and in to T2. T4, Hamilton didn't get far enough past Max in the braking zone, thus Max was able to run Hamilton wide on the exit. Had Hamilton have got ahead in the left hander, Max wouldn't have been able to dictate the line. This is why in the Hamilton / Max incident, Max ran out of room on the exit- he was never ahead and so couldn't dictate the line. He tried to get ahead for T2 by being quicker around the outside, but he never made. At that point, he should have backed off and attacked Hamilton in to the next chicane.

[Wouter]

Oh c'mon ... you know what you did (even if unintentionally), there's enough people who don't click on linked articles, hell some don't even read past headlines.

Yes, it was indeed unintentionally!
Enough people who don't click on links? Really? Why is everybody always asking for a link when someone posts something?

The "opposing team" thing is about fans of opposing teams - you are a fan of RBR, are you not?
Wolff is the principal of the opposing team to the one you support.

NO, I am absolutely not a RBR fan!
I don't have a preference for a team, never did. I am a Senna and Alonso fan and a huge fan of Honda, always was.

And to be very blunt, what purpose would posting that selective quote from a 2.5 day old article even serve five days after the race?
Why would it be of any relevance whether Wolff should hypothetically feel ashamed for things he might or might not have said?

I just saw the article today. May/can I only post here an article that is from today? I didn't know that. I'll keep that in mind.

I stated that I didn't know if the article was reliable, and if he did say that Max did it intentionally, he should be ashamed of himself, because I don't think Max would ever do such a thing intentionally.
Anyway, I understand that you can only post positive things about Mercedes here. I'll think about it from now on.
Fortunately I only read positive things about Honda and the two teams that they provide with a PU and Alonso .....
oh wait a minute.

[wesley123]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/15/dri ... wO_f9Dqt2A

Drivers need to be discouraged from taking out rivals – Wolff

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff says Formula 1 drivers need to be discouraged from deliberately tangling with rivals to prevent them scoring points.

He made his remarks in the wake of Sunday’s collision between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, which put both drivers out of the race. Wolff originally described the move as a “tactical foul” on Verstappen’s part after he had fallen behind Hamilton during their pit stops.

“For me what we need to avoid in the future is taking each out tactically because you know you’ve lost the position,” said Wolff.

Speaking before the verdict was announced, Wolff said: “Tactical fouls in order to make sure that the other guy doesn’t win is something which you need to get under control.”

“How, I have no idea,” he added.

Does Toto accuse Max of intentionally knocking Lewis out? If that's true, if he said that, he should be ashamed of himself.

The ironic part of it is that Red Bull couldn't possibly disagree with his comments, considering how this was all they accused Hamilton of doing.

It forces Red Bull's hand here. He isn't accusing them, he is naming the plausibility of it being done, it is on Red Bull to not make a mess of a possible response.

[RZS10]

Oh c'mon ... you know what you did (even if unintentionally), there's enough people who don't click on linked articles, hell some don't even read past headlines.

Yes, it was indeed unintentionally!
Enough people who don't click on links? Really? Why is everybody always asking for a link when someone posts something?

The "opposing team" thing is about fans of opposing teams - you are a fan of RBR, are you not?
Wolff is the principal of the opposing team to the one you support.

NO, I am absolutely not a RBR fan!
I don't have a preference for a team, never did. I am a Senna and Alonso fan and a huge fan of Honda, always was.

And to be very blunt, what purpose would posting that selective quote from a 2.5 day old article even serve five days after the race?
Why would it be of any relevance whether Wolff should hypothetically feel ashamed for things he might or might not have said?

I just saw the article today. May/can I only post here an article that is from today? I didn't know that. I'll keep that in mind.

I stated that I didn't know if the article was reliable, and if he did say that Max did it intentionally, he should be ashamed of himself, because I don't think Max would ever do such a thing intentionally.
Anyway, I understand that you can only post positive things about Mercedes here. I'll think about it from now on.
Fortunately I only read positive things about Honda and the two teams that they provide with a PU and Alonso .....
oh wait a minute.

Don't be disingenuous, asking for for a source link is very different to selective quotes who most will believe to be a summary or even the sole content of the article from the link.
Sorry that i mistook you jumping into threads to defend RBR/Max feverlishly as being a fan of either of them. Even then, since you're a huge Honda fan Merc is still the opposing team to RBR-Honda.
The comments were discussed the day they were made and a few more times afterwards in this very thread - there's a search function afterall ("tactical" is a perfect keyword to start with).
And the remaining stuff about only being allowed to post positive things about Merc here is of course complete horsesh.t.

And to be, once again, blunt - if you really just wanted to know whether the quotes were real and whether he really accused Max of doing it on purpose you could have done just that "Are those quotes real? Did he really accuse Max of ramming Lewis intentionally?" and then you'd get an answer (which is "nah").
The way you wrote it reeked of outrage bait.

[f1jcw]

Max did nothing wrong?
He crashed into another car, quite seriously, he went for a gap that wasn't there and should have backed off.

Will people stop making excuses.

Will people learn to discuss instead of assuming anyone who disagree is wrong and making excuses?

There will never be a gap if the driver in front go from kerb to kerb, if the one overtaking must be parallel to earn the space there will be almost zero overtakes in current F1

Totally agree. That summarises it perfectly imo.

No, it really doesn’t. if you have to crash someone out to overtake then you’ve done it wrong and the gained a penalty, Max screwed up and was punished, that is the start and end of it.

[Gillian]

No that's your opinion and that's fine. My opinion is it was a racing incident which both could have avoided. Your response is literally what Andres talks about so you are just proving his point anyway.

[cooken]

A racing incident implies both drivers are equally at fault, meaning both drivers did something wrong. Stating that Max did nothing wrong is simply disingenuous.

Now you could also potentially state that a racing incident implies neither driver did anything wrong, but frankly that's a moronic stance to take given they crashed out of the race.

[Gillian]

So all people who are of the opinion Verstappen did nothing wrong are disingenuous?

Ans people who think neither did anything wrong are morons?

That's very disrespectful but that's my opinion.

[Unf]

Nice animation, showing how car #44 is leaving a space to car #33

[cooken]

So all people who are of the opinion Verstappen did nothing wrong are disingenuous?

No, only those calling it a racing incident and then also saying he did nothing wrong.

Ans people who think neither did anything wrong are morons?

That's very disrespectful but that's my opinion.

Well....sorry but pretty much. They both crashed out of the race. Somebody somewhere did something wrong.

For what it's worth I think they both did something wrong.

[Big Tea]

A racing incident implies both drivers are equally at fault, meaning both drivers did something wrong. Stating that Max did nothing wrong is simply disingenuous.

Now you could also potentially state that a racing incident implies neither driver did anything wrong, but frankly that's a moronic stance to take given they crashed out of the race.

I have to admit that I subscribe to the 'neither driver did anything wrong' school, but, and I know it sounds wrong, neither driver did the right thing either.

If I ran either team I would not tell my driver he had done wrong, but I would tell either driver they could have avoided it, by what ever means from a flick of the steering wheel to outright full on breaks and half a dozen options in between.

From Lewis point of view he was not going to step back because to him, it is 'always me who has to decide I don't want to crash', and from Max point of view if something went wrong, the odds were it would mean a better result for him points wise, and he would have 'won that one' and could be more confident in doing it again next time.
(I am 100% sure he would not intend to have a pile up that became bad)

I do not see any driver 'at fault' as such, but if one had to be punished to make the books look good it had to be Max, even though the culprit was really the curb. Had his wheels not lifted it would just have been a tap and both would carry on racing