2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[NathanOlder]

Does anyone know if the telemetry was looked at by the stewards or did they have to wait until after the race to see it?

I was under the impression they didn't see it until after the race?

[koenigzig]

Does anyone know if the telemetry was looked at by the stewards or did they have to wait until after the race to see it?

I was under the impression they didn't see it until after the race?

Since the incident was not investigated, the telemetry was not looked at

[siskue2005]

Does anyone know if the telemetry was looked at by the stewards or did they have to wait until after the race to see it?

I was under the impression they didn't see it until after the race?

They noted the incident and just 2 laps later they declared no investigation necessary; so that's 2 to 3 minutes for them to decide so I don't think they even saw anything other than the live pictures

[NathanOlder]

Yeah thats what I thought, thanks guys. So the telemetry and onboard is likely to both be classed as new evidence. So plenty to help Mercedes cause

[Starkblood80]

If and it’s a big if, the stewards decide to penalise max I would think a 3 place grid drop for the next race would be more beneficial to Mercedes than a retrospective 5 second penalty?

[holeindalip]

If and it’s a big if, the stewards decide to penalise max I would think a 3 place grid drop for the next race would be more beneficial to Mercedes than a retrospective 5 second penalty?

Just depends on how much overtaking is possible in Qatar….

[west52keep64]

I think the chances the stewards will actually apply a penalty are incredibly slim. The onboard footage is certainly new and relevant evidence, but what is it proving exactly? The footage available on the day showed Max running wide without locking or sliding, and the stewards already ruled based on that.

But it didn't allow them to see him open up the steering slightly mid corner when he already had a good rotation and was not understeering.

I feel like the stewards will probably say they were able to see that from the footage they had, and therefore their decision will remain unchanged. There's a slim chance this appeal will actually change the result, but if it does it could decide the championship, which is why Mercedes are going after it. It's the exact same reason Red Bull tried to do the same after Silverstone.

[Restomaniac]

Just watched the race again. Masi is a liar.
When asked by Mercedes directly he said ‘having looked at it all completely it was one of those and obviously we’ve had a good look at it, Erm and that’s why we’ve gone for a no investigation’. We all know that wasn’t possible as they didn’t have Verstappen’s cockpit and telem. This is the key point IMHO. Mercedes could have them and him on toast.

[Big Tea]

Lets face it, they are not going to say 'AH, we were wrong, lets fix it' if they were or not.
This is going to disappear.

[Restomaniac]

Lets face it, they are not going to say 'AH, we were wrong, lets fix it' if they were or not.
This is going to disappear.

I can see Mercedes dragging this right out. It suits them to do so, keep any penalty hanging for as long as possible

[Shrieker]

Just watched the race again. Masi is a liar.
When asked by Mercedes directly he said ‘having looked at it all completely it was one of those and obviously we’ve had a good look at it, Erm and that’s why we’ve gone for a no investigation’. We all know that wasn’t possible as they didn’t have Verstappen’s cockpit and telem. This is the key point IMHO. Mercedes could have them and him on toast.

Ouch.

Right from the get go, Masi seemed sus to me. Since then, he's done nothing but prove what I thought at the time, over and over and over again.

[SuperCNJ]

The question on my mind is, if it is deemed acceptable to run another car off the track and by such a large extent, where should the FIA draw the line? Do they need to draw a line?

If there is no line per se, and we can run cars off track however far we want, what is the point of having a race track? Drivers are free to make their own version of the track. It also means all overtakes can only be done before the braking zone - because all you need to do is barge the other car off track in the corners regardless of how much faster they are.

If there is a line to be drawn, where should it be? Isn't this the purpose of the white line to define the track limits?

I agree we should "let them race" but surely there is a point when it becomes a safety concern when someone is effectively driving into you. To me, that isn't racing. Any driver can play chicken and crash into another car, you just don't need to give a sh1t about crashing, or killing the other driver.

[El Scorchio]

RE: Masi. I think he's more just out of his depth and a bit poor at his job. and maybe a little bit like certain football referees who like to make themselves the centre of attention. Also seems more occupied with 'the show' rather than actually doing what's needed.

[SuperCNJ]

On another point - those who are saying Max would have lost control of the car had there been more steering angle. Do we really believe for a second that an F1 driver, let alone a driver of Max's ability would not have known the possible trajectory of the car before committing to the corner? With that in mind, do we really believe that Max was effectively a passenger in that RB that ran almost 10m off the track, with tyres that were not that much older than Lewis' - who probably would have made the corner quite comfortably?

This for me was a desperate but deliberate and precision executed manoeuvre.

[e30ernest]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I don't know why people are dunking on Ho-Pin Tung and, I suspect, not reading what he actually wrote.

Paragraph 1: Tyre grip has a limit
Paragraph 2: If you exceed that limit, bad things happen. Verstappen brakes later than Hamilton, on a tighter radius, and is already going faster. To maximise grip, he would brake in a straight line.
Paragraph 3: Verstappen doesn't try to make the corner, because he knows he's going too fast.
Paragraph 4: Had he turned tighter he'd spin and hit Hamilton.

Does anyone actually disagree with this?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't saying Verstappen didn't divebomb Hamilton and force him off the track. He's saying the opposite of that. Verstappen came in too fast (only Verstappen knows if it was deliberate), couldn't make the turn, so drove off the track with Hamilton trapped on the outside. As intent has no bearing on the rules, Ho-Pin Tung is actually in the Mercedes camp.

He could say exactly the same about Bottas in Hungary. He came in too fast, couldn't brake in time, hit Norris. To say those things isn't to argue Bottas didn't deserve a penalty, it's merely an observation of the facts.

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with Ho-Pin's recounting of events (I agree with him too), but he did (deliberately) leave out the context of the situation. Namely, why Max was so late in the brakes to start with and why was he on the throttle on so early if he knew he was already heading off the track.



Now the above could either be because Max made a genuine mistake, or he was deliberately running Lewis off the track in a desperate attempt to maintain his lead.