2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[diffuser]

The funny thing is F1 hasn't always been about being the best. It's always been about who's spent the most money the wisest. Hopefully that Era has come to an end or atleast they've made it harder to buy a championship.

Regardless of who won, we all have to acknowledge that what was done wasn't right. The rules need to be changed
- A racing director should never be allowed to allow just some lapped cars through. Either all or none. When there is less than 25% of the race left, it should always default to none.

- Allowing tires to be changed under the Red Flag if any car has pitted under the safety car that immediately preceded the red flag. With the exception of safety reason exists(IE Baku).

- AND FOR GOD SAKES simplify the rules on passing.
We keep talking talking about the racing line, I doubt more than 40% of F1 fans know where it is. We have problems enforcing rules on the white lines on the track edges, imagine how difficult it is to enforce some imaginary line on the track where in some situations there can be several? If you're passing on the inside, the understanding would be that you don't own the racing line but that you leave a car's width on the outside. You should not be rewarded for purposely going into a corner too fast to get 30cms ahead of the other car just to say you deserve the racing line and therefore it is ok for me to push you off the track. How often this year have we seen both cars go into a corner with too much speed and they both can't make the corner?

-The Penalty ...What the F is "give the place back" exactly???? This lap, next lap, 10 laps from now, first corner last corner, on the straight, WHERE? If you give someone a penalty, you can't let THEM decide where to serve it?

-The backing up of cars before the start finish line before a Quali run that end up interfering with cars on a fast lap.

I could go on. There are several rules that I haven't talked about that keep coming up that don't have good fixes in place or the rules haven't been enforced. The racing should get closer in the next couple of years with more teams in the running for the championship. If it was this hard with 2 teams imagine how hard it's gonna be with 4 teams separated by 10 points.

[diffuser]

Let’s face it, Masi tried to solve the trolley dilemma.

By wanting to give Max a fighting chance he forced Lewis to lose the race and WDC.
By not wanting to have Lewis win the race and title under safety car he made the division he did.

Is there any legal precedent for that trolley problem?

If they really wanted to have a shootout for the tv, there was a simple solution: Red flag the session and do a standing start. That would have given Ham a fighting chance.

Succumbing to what Horner demanded handed RB the win.

I whole heartedly agree.

[cooken]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

Pit lane could just be closed until all cars have joined the tail behind the SC. Is there a flaw with that?

[Hoffman900]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

I can’t remember, why did they close to pit lane for Lewis at Monza last year when Gasly won?

[cooken]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

I can’t remember, why did they close to pit lane for Lewis at Monza last year when Gasly won?

Because the car that caused it was parked off track right next to the pit entry.

[Bill_Kar]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

I can’t remember, why did they close to pit lane for Lewis at Monza last year when Gasly won?

I think because Magnussen had retired on the right of the pit entry and it was deemed not safe to enter the pits while marshals were retrieving the car.

[woohoo]

Let’s face it, Masi tried to solve the trolley dilemma.

By wanting to give Max a fighting chance he forced Lewis to lose the race and WDC.
By not wanting to have Lewis win the race and title under safety car he made the division he did.

Is there any legal precedent for that trolley problem?

If they really wanted to have a shootout for the tv, there was a simple solution: Red flag the session and do a standing start. That would have given Ham a fighting chance.

Succumbing to what Horner demanded handed RB the win.

100%!

He did not see he had a third option that was not a handover to either Hamilton or Verstappen.

I was cutting Masi slack during the year, as to be fair, Charlie Whiting's shoes were big to fill, and the regulations (being broken) have always been open to too much flexibility to which you needed equal finesse and balance to counter, but here he showed he could not make a good call under pressure, and this was not his first race.

I think the Sport hearing will leave the result as it is, and Masi will retire (be made to retire) on health grounds in early spring.

[Ryar]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

Pit lane could just be closed until all cars have joined the tail behind the SC. Is there a flaw with that?

There is a flaw. If a car has built a lead with a lot of good work and has reached it's planned pit window, then at that moment if the SC happens, it takes away the hard earned gap and leaves the driver helpless, especially if the car chasing had pit a lap before. That would be unfair.

[diffuser]

Yes, it does. And over a full season Max and Lewis tied on points before the final race. The final race decided the title. The final lap decided the final race. And the final lap was entirely the opposite of all of the laps leading up to it. If Max had been leading like Lewis was and then benefitted from a left-field RD call, I don't think anyone would have minded. But he wasn't. He'd been thoroughly beaten right up until the SC came out. Lewis was lapping at the same pace as a guy on fresher rubber, even through the traffic he didn't lose much. So right up until Masi made his unprecedented call to place Max on Lewis's tail with new rubber, Max had lost the title. That's the straight up truth of the matter. That call decided the title, not anything done by the teams or their drivers during the full season. That's what is so unsavoury about it.

It's a shame for Max. And it's shame for Lewis. And it's a shame for any fans of F1 as a contest between cars and drivers on track.

No it doesn't. If this situation, for whatever reason, had played out in the very first race rather than the very last, and that just gave Max enough of a lead to stay ahead in the end, it would have had exactly as much influence on the championship as it has now. Just as much as some other earlier decisions have influenced the championship. One cannot isolate a single event and pinpoint that as being the single thing handing the championship to whoever wins it. It is the cumulative effect of all decisions and events. From the liberal interpretation of track limits in Bahrain favoring Lewis, to the liberal interpretation of SC rules benefiting Max. The issue with this season is not that one team was handed the victory by a single decision. The issue is that there have been various disputable decisions and rule changes that affected the overall outcome, regardless of who won, and that tainted the outcome of this season in general. And that needs to be fixed, regardless of whether one roots for RB or MB.

I see what you mean, but a decision at the beginning of the season has much less of an effect on the result because there is time to overcome the deficit. Indeed, after the first race of the season, who was leading the title standings? And did the other manage to overcome that deficit? Why, yes, he did.

The thing with this season is that the decisions and performances basically evened out and we had a tied points situation in the final race. Any decisions made then can not be overcome. There is no way that the arbitrary decision made by Masi can be overcome at a subsequent race because there is no subsequent race. And thus the season came down to one race, and that race came down to one decision that led to a single lap that was, effectively, impossible to win for one of the competitors.

It's the decision that's the problem for me. Max has won the title and I'm happy for him to have done so. I'm just unhappy with the way the race director - the referee of the competition - changed the rules as they have been applied to that point. That's just wrong on all levels, irrespective of who you do or don't support.

I agree. Well said.

[NL_Fer]

Let’s face it, Masi tried to solve the trolley dilemma.

By wanting to give Max a fighting chance he forced Lewis to lose the race and WDC.
By not wanting to have Lewis win the race and title under safety car he made the division he did.

Is there any legal precedent for that trolley problem?

If they really wanted to have a shootout for the tv, there was a simple solution: Red flag the session and do a standing start. That would have given Ham a fighting chance.

Succumbing to what Horner demanded handed RB the win.

But this also has to be made clear also before the race. Like SC in the final 10 laps, will always be a redflag and standing start. Otherwise teams would still gamble a pitstop and be disadvantaged if the redflag comes a lap after the SC. (Like in Jeddah)

[Just_a_fan]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

Pit lane could just be closed until all cars have joined the tail behind the SC. Is there a flaw with that?

The whole flaw in the safety car system is that it does massively advantage/disadvantage competitors. For a start, it removes all the lead that has been gained ahead of the driver behind and, depending on when it happens, that can leave the driver ahead open to attack where they wouldn't have been otherwise. Say we're battling and I've managed to pull a 10 second lead on you. You take a pit stop and then two laps later there's a safety car. Bang, you're now on my tail with new rubber and all my hard work and excellent (yeah, I know) driving has been thrown out. That's just plain unfair and contrary to the idea of fair competition between cars and drivers.

What should happen is, even if there is a "safety car", that the gaps should remain the same as they were just before the incident. That's where the virtual safety car type approach helps. It's not perfect but it's much fairer.

A slow zone type system also prevents that huge unearned advantage to you in that situation.

[cooken]

Yes fair enough. I agree the SC really should be binned as the VSC is more than adequate and more properly neutralizes the race with maintained gaps.

[Big Tea]

Let’s face it, Masi tried to solve the trolley dilemma.

By wanting to give Max a fighting chance he forced Lewis to lose the race and WDC.
By not wanting to have Lewis win the race and title under safety car he made the division he did.

Is there any legal precedent for that trolley problem?

If they really wanted to have a shootout for the tv, there was a simple solution: Red flag the session and do a standing start. That would have given Ham a fighting chance.

Succumbing to what Horner demanded handed RB the win.

But this also has to be made clear also before the race. Like SC in the final 10 laps, will always be a redflag and standing start. Otherwise teams would still gamble a pitstop and be disadvantaged if the redflag comes a lap after the SC. (Like in Jeddah)

I like the sound of that rule

[Just_a_fan]

You know what works equally well? Safety car, pit lane closed. This would have closed the field, and offered a more even last lap battle (ignoring the fact that it shouldn't have happened in the first place). Why do they allow cars into the pits when there is no debris etc on track? The objective with any SC/VSC should be to neutralize the race, meaning preserve the race order until reaching can resume, while minimizing any potential advantage/disadvantage between competitors.

Pit lane could just be closed until all cars have joined the tail behind the SC. Is there a flaw with that?

There is a flaw. If a car has built a lead with a lot of good work and has reached it's planned pit window, then at that moment if the SC happens, it takes away the hard earned gap and leaves the driver helpless, especially if the car chasing had pit a lap before. That would be unfair.

Exactly so. It's why the safety car is a poor idea and why I started a thread about ideas for an alternative.

[Mogster]

Liberty Media must be absolutely loving this, in the UK at least I can’t remember F1 getting coverage like this in print, on TV/radio. It’s just immense. Out and about you can hear people talking about it, incredible.