2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[wesley123]

If one goes the rest will follow, if Ferrari dares to not sign in the form for 2010 then the rest will follow, RBR, Renault, STR, BMW, Toyota and mercedes will pull out of the sport, all the Big players here will leave and let the sport bleed to death. If this really happens we will really see a one makes serie. I see Toyota and Mercedes going to the prototypes, as there you are able to do alot more with less.

[RacingManiac]

I think that too many people are missing the point here - the budget cap is an issue clearly but what I reckon is the real problem is the two-tier proposal.

A two-tier rulebook has the potential to put a car from a small (relatively!) company in front of all the manufacturer teams who are spending whatever they want and that'll just make them look stupid.

Let's face it equivalency never really works even when there's a genuine will to get it right - who'd trust the FIA to get it right rather than using it for political means (eg to blackmail the manufacturer teams by ensuring that the other teams win until they sign new deals for example)?

A budget cap will not be properly enforceable without spending a lot more money on auditing than they've suggested and it will undoubtedly lead to a situation at some time where a team wins the WC/a race and there is yet another court case to decide whether expense A or B should have been included/was missed and as such the team has overspent.

I guess that my thoughts are that the regulations should be designed to ensure that clever thinking produces fast cars (eg Red Bull's rear suspension/low body) and to that end, maybe a shake up of the regulations each year but with very ristrictive rules in areas where computer iterations will produce faster cars (eg all the winglets that we used to have) but actually require relatively little clever thought - just lots of resource.

Limiting CFD usage as well as track time would also be a good idea I reckon - it doesn't really benefit the teams, fans, etc.

Exactly, no one wants to have their best work beaten, by basically the words and numbers in the rule book.

[Agerasia]

Oh dear,
whether the budget cap is right or wrong no one wants a 2 tier F1. Maybe the smaller teams recieving a greater share of the funds would be a way forward. I'm sure this is what FOTA were discussing anyway.

[ben_watkins]

Many of you are doing exactly what Max and Bernie want -- attacking the messenger (Ferrari) rather than the message (that F1 is an obscenely corrupt money machine for a pair of thug/dictators).

If you can't get past your hatred for Ferrai then take into account that their position is echoed by Toyota, RBR, and Renault. Now, can you consider the stance of Renault, RBR, and Toyota?

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> Brilliant, cut straight through the bulls**t. Best non-tech comment i've read on this board! =D> =D> =D>

[WhiteBlue]

The thought of Ferrari, Merc, Toyota, Red Bull, BMW and Renault doing a global LM series surely is very appealing. Imagine a race on the Nürburgring Nordschleife and some of the circuits they go in America. It would be fun to watch this and see Bernie take FOM bust and die of boredom in the middle of the season. But its a dream, nothing more.

[Richard]

Many of you are doing exactly what Max and Bernie want -- attacking the messenger (Ferrari) rather than the message (that F1 is an obscenely corrupt money machine for a pair of thug/dictators).

I don't see that. I see people glad that the teams have united for common sense against MM and BE?

Lets get this straight, the two tier is just a catalyst to bring their anger out into the open. The real point is that they don't want any more meddling by BE and MM. That's what the Ferrari statement says - no more meddling, let us get on with our job of building fantastic racing cars, and you stick to smoozing the money men.

[ISLAMATRON]

Ferrarui building fantastic racecars? not this year... not until they get to pour millions into it... oh wait... a budget cap wouldnt allow them to do that... no wonder they hate that idea

But I do understand their point of the constant rules changes by the FIA

[nudger]

As people have already pointed out there would be legal consequences if Ferrari would pull out of F1 next year. We do not know the details of the document they signed with FOM and the FIA in 2005 but surely it will have a clause that binds them to the championship with massive punitive damages in a case of failure. If Ferrari's departure produces damages to FOM's business they will be liable for damage claims as well. The same is true of Didi Mateschitz who also signed.

I do not know how Mateschitz/Ferrari plan to refute such claims but contrary to common believe Max Mosley isn't a dumb nut when it comes to contracts. His two tier scheme isn't changing the rules for Ferrari and Red Bull. It just makes it extremely unlikely for them to continue winning. In a court of law it would be likely in my view that Ferrari will be ordered to compensate FOM and pay puninitve damages. They may try to take regress from FIA but as I said I doubt that their contractual rights have actually been violated, as they publicly claim.

sheesh, i think ferrari would wipe the floor with the fia if it went to court. Mind you, in part that may depend on which court they took it to.
actually, i even remember max said something to the effect that the teams could bring legal action and he didnt know how they would stand, but he didnt believe they ever would do that. furthermore, the way mosley tried to mitigate their breach of contract with ferrai was by claiming, in writing, that the budgeted teams would not be beating ferrari, they would be behind them...going on to say that he would ensure that was the case.
that of course contradicts what he has been saying to the media.

[nudger]

Ferrarui building fantastic racecars? not this year... not until they get to pour millions into it... oh wait... a budget cap wouldnt allow them to do that... no wonder they hate that idea

But I do understand their point of the constant rules changes by the FIA

well, ferrari have got a lot of millions to go to catch up with how much has been spent on the brawns development

[BTM]

Ferrarui building fantastic racecars? not this year... not until they get to pour millions into it... oh wait... a budget cap wouldnt allow them to do that... no wonder they hate that idea

But I do understand their point of the constant rules changes by the FIA

well, ferrari have got a lot of millions to go to catch up with how much has been spent on the brawns development

don't rule out the amount that Honda spent on basically developing and testing a car. It'd be foolish to think that Ross Brawn didn't obtain a significant amount of Honda developed/tested parts and information when he bought them.

[BTM]

I am a Ferrari fan, and I wholeheartedly support their stance. For those who detest Ferrari, consider Renault, Toyota, RBR, Torro Rosso. That is 10 cars right there. Presuming McLaren, and possibly Williams withdraw, that leaves a 6 car championship. I highly doubt that a 40m budget cap will attract 7 new teams. Just because Ferrari is putting their foot down doesn't mean they are at fault.

I see this as having nothing to do with Ferrari not wanting to compete if they can't dominate. See 60 years of F1 competition, 16 constructors' championships. That is hardly domination. Until the late 90s, Ferrari had been laughably uncompetitive in F1 since the late 70s. Did they ever pull out of F1? Sure, the Schumi/Brawn/Todt/Byrne era has come to an end, but that in no way implies Ferrari is hanging up the gloves because they don't have the dream team they once did, and are (predictably) struggling with it.

Also, Toyota announced their withdrawal before this, and Williams strongly opposed the regulations. Ferrari is simply applying their (well deserved and hard earned) weight in their best interest, which is also in the interest of all but maybe 3 or 4 teams. In a dick measuring contest between FIA and FOM and Ferrari et al, I'm confident Ferrari will prove theirs is biggest (how else do you think they got all those hot Italian women fans )

[ISLAMATRON]

Ferrari and all the other unhappy teams are up in arms about a 2 tier series... but the FACT remains, there is no 2 tier series if everybody adheres to the budget cap... So ultimately they are against a budget cap plain and simple.

What makes it so impossible for Ferrari to adhere to a 40 mil budget?

None of the 2010 rules introduced at the last WMSC meeting were not already agreed upon by the teams.... refueling ban, no tire warmers, min weight increase, all of it was put forward by the teams/FOTA... so they cant really say that they dont like how the FIA is changing the rules

The only thing FOTA did not put forward was a 40 mil budget cap, they were asked for an appropriate level and did not provide one... So the FIA did what they thought was appropriate, even going as far as taking driver saleries, engines and marketing out of the 40 Mil(a concession to the big teams)... but still FErrari would rather quit than compete on a level playing field(not that level they would still have a big financial advantage)

[BTM]

FOTA already proposed their own progressive budget cuts to take place over the next 5 years. FIA/FOM completely ignored, and went for this. I can see why they're pissed.

[lkocev]

Ferrari in my opinion are blowing smoke, I honeslty don't see anything they could gain by leaving F1. Ferrari are an F1 team and they always will be if you ask me, they wouldn't belong in some kind of champcar series, they blong in F1. On the other hand if they do end up leaving then I don't really give too much of a --- either.

Though I do think they are genuinley unhappy about the possibility of an F1 championship with various teams following 2 sets of rules. I don't think having 2 sets of rules that teams can choose from is a good thing to do either. If they want a buget cap, sure, I think that is achievable, but on the other hand, what is wrong with the progressive buget cuts the FOTA has already proposed? I'm of the opinion that radical budget cuts like that need to be introduced in incremental steps, rather that immediate and (more or less) instant changes. I guess a better compromise needs to be reached between all parties somehow.

This is one occasion when I think Ferrari is doing something commendable - they are pretty much throwing their weight around for the benifit of most teams. Ultimately I think that an agreement can be reached and Ferrari will remain in F1, I guess these things take time...

[ISLAMATRON]

The problem with progressive budget cuts that it gives no incentive for new teams to join the grid but in the meantime many of the manufacturers are talking about leaving (even before the 2010 rules were published.)


We have heard of rumors of Toyota, Renault, and even Mercedes leaving F1 since the shocking Honda news dropped.

F1 has been losing teams both manufacturer and independent steadily for the last 2 decades. With this cap in place we are hearing about a possible 4 to 7 new teams. It helps a new team in no way for the budget cap to be started at 100 mil or so.

The best way around all this controversy would have been to only pay out FOM money to teams that operate unde the budget cap... but maintain the same technical rules for everyone.