2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[gridwalker]

A1GP seems like it could provide a useful bolthole, however wouldn't the existing teams be just as unhappy about being dislodged from that championship? There would be all manner of contractual issues if a group of F1 manufacturers attempted a hostile takeover of the series.

Moving to A1GP could have additional blowback, due to the "world cup" format of A1GP. There are many countries involved in the series that have no historic involvement in motorsport, so these teams being ousted from a series that is significantly expanding the motorsport fan base of these nations could leave a bitter taste in the mouth of a whole new generation of fans, significantly hampering the expansion of the racing industry in these regions for many years to come.

I agree with the point you raise regarding circumventing testing restrictions by making interoperable components for cars racing in different series, as many parts can be mounted in different chassis without any significant problem. Anyone who ever saw the old 3.5 liter V10 Renault Espace back in the 1990s (1992 spec Williams engine) will attest to this fact

Now, I'm going to drift away from topic for a little while, as there is one point that I feel needs to be raised :

Max is a N@z! socialist tyrant pig ...

As a Socialist, I feel that there needs to be a small correction on the above point.

Nazism and Socialism do not mix - just read up on the Nazi crackdown on trade unionism & that fact becomes blatantly clear.

The "socialism" in "National Socialism" of Nazi fame does not refer to political and economic socialism, but to the individual's duty to the state.

To quote a little bit of the Wiki article on Nazism :

The term “National Socialism” derives from this citizen-nation relationship, whereby the term socialism is invoked and is meant to be realized through the common duty of the individuals to the German people; all actions are to be in service of the Reich. The Nazis stated that their goal was to bring forth a nation-state as the locus and embodiment of the people’s collective will, bound by the Volksgemeinschaft, as both an ideal and an operating instrument. In comparison, traditional socialist ideologies oppose the idea of nations.

Nazism was a form of fascism, which promotes a strong private sector. In the words of the founder of the original Fascist party, Benito Mussolini, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

I can understand your anger at Max's attitude, however that statement conflates two opposing philosophies in a way that I find a bit offensive. Not that I'm taking it personally ... it's just that I am as interested in political theory as I am in motorsports!!!

Now that I've contested that point, let's get back to the racing!!!

[modbaraban]

NASCAR.

Dirt Bikes



PS: I'd like a Porsche vs. Ferrari battle at Le Mans in P2... or P1.

[ISLAMATRON]

Ok, this is the end of my rant. Please, feel free to comment, but if you disagree with my main idea, I think you are either stupid or related to Max, Bernie and CVC.

Or we are free thinking individuals that have different views.

Too bad that the option that you may be wrong is not included, because it was a well written post before I got to that part...

LOL. Well, I had to stir up the pot with that because I knew my idea is great and sensible. LOL. But I knew that last comment was what people were gonna complain about. Inserted it there completely intentionally. I'm still laughing about the fact that I predicted it.

anyway, jokes aside, I think it's a pretty solid argument I'm sharing out here. If any of you can modify it to make it better great.

Your argument is garbage... and I will tell you why... Your numbers are all wrong.

The cap is not only the 40 mil pounds... but the cap does not include the drivers Salary which for Ferrari is over 40 mil Euro, also not included in the Cap are engine costs which Ferrari found a way to spend 50 mil something(dollars I think) during the engine freeze last year for a measly 35 hp bump(it cost them a win in hungary too, and possibly the WDC) and lastly the cap does not include marketing & hospitality, I have heard all types of numbers on this but lets put in in the 100 mil Euro ballpark(for SF)...

add that all together and you approach 250 mil Euro... how much different is that than what they are spending already?

of course new teams dont have to spend that much on hospitality & marketing, but that wont hurt their on track performance, and they dont have to spend that much on drivers either and who knows they might find gem in the rough like Senna or Schumacher who might actually pay them to drive the car. And of course all the new teams would be leasing engines... so you see the new teams could be competitive at 50 mil pounds and Ferrari could also be competitve at 250 mil euros and both of them still be included in the cap.

[ISLAMATRON]

I'd love to see them get stomped at Le mans... just think if they can make that many mistakes in 1 GP how many silly blunders can they make in 24 hours... in the rain, or in the dark, or both. It would be shear comedy.

And they stand no chance without a diesel engine, unless they are going for the LMP2 category win.

[DaveKillens]

Ok, this is the end of my rant. Please, feel free to comment, but if you disagree with my main idea, I think you are either stupid or related to Max, Bernie and CVC.

Or we are free thinking individuals that have different views.

Too bad that the option that you may be wrong is not included, because it was a well written post before I got to that part...

LOL. Well, I had to stir up the pot with that because I knew my idea is great and sensible. LOL. But I knew that last comment was what people were gonna complain about. Inserted it there completely intentionally. I'm still laughing about the fact that I predicted it.

anyway, jokes aside, I think it's a pretty solid argument I'm sharing out here. If any of you can modify it to make it better great.

What argument? This is like a cook baking a wonderful soufflé, then covering it in s--t. I was following the post, nodding my head and remarking to myself on many subjects. But when I read the highlighted part, I forget everything else. I don't remember the soufflé, I just remember that it was covered in s--t.

[ISLAMATRON]

No concession from Max as I predicted . Ferrari are in the French civil courts. They are serious. 14 days to go. The teams will not sign and Bernie will be without a series. It remains to be seen what alternative they will seek. Just quit and walk away... attractive to Renault who are getting beat by their customer team. A rival series? I would say the A1GP rumor may have some credibility to it because....

If the manufacturers were going to set up a FOTA series from scratch I would think we would have heard some rumblings about track owners being approached, maybe some insurance underwriters being approached, media and TV contracts being approached etc. A1GP while not an ideal package is nonetheless a unitized package that is mostly ready to go. And I can't see the teams making all these "quit F1" threats without an alternative in mind. So my conclusion is a deductive one, not one based upon any facts leaked.

Max is a N@z! socialist tyrant pig who doesn't believe in gravity... or free market supply and demand pricing which is as much of a law as gravity is. No team is going to spend a quadrillion Euros for their F1 budget. Their budgets are set by their respective boards who have to assess the PR value of F1 vs the ROI. These determinations are made in the light of economic reality by those whose money is being spent. You cannot police a budget cap. Ferrari could just test their "LMP" cars at Mugello which "just happens" to have the same transmission and suspension as their F1 car and there isn't a thing anyone could say about it. The FOTA's proposal recognizes this reailty. Max want to poke his nose in everyone's books.... ain't gunna happen. Two tiered... don't make me laugh. Even Max knows this is absurd but he is using it as a negotiating tool to conform the teams to his will. Also ain't gunna happen. Max has overplayed his hand and painted himself into a corner. The teams aren't going to cave or be divided. Without the Concorde Agreement and its "unanimity clause", Max and Bernie can't manipulate the outcome unilaterally.

And please note that the budget cap is by far a secondary issue. The teams are sick of Max's unilateral decrees and they will no longer stand for it. It is over for the "old ways". The teams are going to assert themselves in a unified manner and all the "liargate" "spygate" "diffusergate" dramas are secondary to the unity and agenda of the FOTA. I might add, it is about time.

call this one the FOTA manifesto!

I find it ironic that your sig calls for the end of the "dopey" regs in F1, but when the FIA attempts to do just that and allow a huge amount of technical freedom we havent seen in the last 20 years or so, with only a monetary value as a constraint, you concoct a manifesto denouncing it.

[gcdugas]

call this one the FOTA manifesto!

I find it ironic that your sig calls for the end of the "dopey" regs in F1, but when the FIA attempts to do just that and allow a huge amount of technical freedom we havent seen in the last 20 years or so, with only a monetary value as a constraint, you concoct a manifesto denouncing it.

Don't be so naive. This has nothing to do with loosening the regs. You can have loose regs, technical freedom and budgets set by the free market. The FIA is using the two tiered offer of freedom as a ploy. They could just as easily offer technical freedom to everyone, not just those who go along with their low level budget and N@Z! bookkeeping probes and audits.

This is all about power. It is about Max vs. the teams. Why can't Max accept the teams' proposal? Why did he ignore it entirely? It was such that the lowest (FIF1) and the highest (Toyota or Ferrari) were both happy. USF1 entered under the "old high budget" understanding. I know Max really wants these guys in the sport but Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, Renault and Mercedes are trying to deny them entry to their exclusive little club. It is interesting to hear that Max, the guy who previously demanded a $300M bond for entry into F1, can now say the exact opposite with a straight face. And I also remember that Max, the great "safety pioneer" is the one who refused the teams medical services at the test sessions as a negotiating tool against the GPDA. Max is a vacillating mentally unstable tyrant who will not be defied. Thus it is time for him to go. It is way past time. If Max were to magically transform himself into a reasonable person who is willing to yield in negotiations and conform to written agreements on governance and procedure, I would be the first to say he should stay. He is not any of those things and that is why he should go.

[Giblet]

I think, unfortunately, Max's personal life should be his new focus.

His family likely needs him more right now then F1 needs him. He has money, he gains nothing by staying in power,

His legacy should be making the sport safer, keeping every driver not only alive since the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger, but able to race until they retire/get fired, not being an all around general asshole who refuses to listen to the actual participants of the sport.

He thinks it's HIS sport, and should realize that his ebb has come and gone.

[Afterburner]

I'd love to see them get stomped at Le mans... just think if they can make that many mistakes in 1 GP how many silly blunders can they make in 24 hours... in the rain, or in the dark, or both. It would be shear comedy.

And they stand no chance without a diesel engine, unless they are going for the LMP2 category win.

Let them make their mistakes like they do so well but please, no more copy paste from stepney's friends and cousins to other teams and no more mad Max mental craps. BTW, the pit babes are always welcome.

[nae]

I predict that we will see F1 racing under 2009 rules in 2010 with this years cars

[Callum]

I'd love to see them get stomped at Le mans... just think if they can make that many mistakes in 1 GP how many silly blunders can they make in 24 hours... in the rain, or in the dark, or both. It would be shear comedy.

And they stand no chance without a diesel engine, unless they are going for the LMP2 category win.

Let them make their mistakes like they do so well but please, no more copy paste from stepney's friends and cousins to other teams and no more mad Max mental craps. BTW, the pit babes are always welcome.

haha, Hawian tropic girls??

[andartop]

MAX said: "it might take all summer to resolve the issue"
MAX said: "the teams know they can enter the 2010 championship at a later date than the deadline, as long as there are spaces available on the grid (and they pay something extra to the FIA)"
MAX said: "problem is, there may not be enough free slots for everyone to come back if it's too late.."
MAX said: "if that happens, the only way in would be for them to buy a smaller team!"
I SAY: Do you guys want to buy ourselves a slot in next year's grid as F1Team Technical and then sell it to Ferrari and get rich?!!!

[jddh1]

Your argument is garbage... and I will tell you why... Your numbers are all wrong.

The cap is not only the 40 mil pounds... but the cap does not include the drivers Salary which for Ferrari is over 40 mil Euro, also not included in the Cap are engine costs which Ferrari found a way to spend 50 mil something(dollars I think) during the engine freeze last year for a measly 35 hp bump(it cost them a win in hungary too, and possibly the WDC) and lastly the cap does not include marketing & hospitality, I have heard all types of numbers on this but lets put in in the 100 mil Euro ballpark(for SF)...

add that all together and you approach 250 mil Euro... how much different is that than what they are spending already?

of course new teams dont have to spend that much on hospitality & marketing, but that wont hurt their on track performance, and they dont have to spend that much on drivers either and who knows they might find gem in the rough like Senna or Schumacher who might actually pay them to drive the car. And of course all the new teams would be leasing engines... so you see the new teams could be competitive at 50 mil pounds and Ferrari could also be competitve at 250 mil euros and both of them still be included in the cap.

First, the comment in bold would suggest that we don't have F1 any more without the marketing and hospitality. If you don't do a decent job marketing your team, then how many sponsors do you think you'll get?

You also say that Ferrari has spent 100 mill dollars on hospitality. You might be right, I don't know, but let's use your numbers for now as a benchmark. Now, look at the "smaller" teams motorhomes (there's another thread for that here) and tell me that Fifi is not spending something similar. In fact, only Renault is spending less on that for sure.

In addition, you're claiming unexpected expenses on your calculation of 250 mill. That is wrong, my dear friend. Having a $250 mill budget is very different from reaching $250 mill in expenses over a year. You see, if you have reached that budget cap, you won't move to make that 50 mill dollar change because you can't. You'd have to wait for next year. That is a very small, yet important difference between your argument and mine. I hope you see this.
So, my numbers are not wrong. Yours are not wrong either in a way. But we can't have these numbers justifying each others. I don't think they're apples and oranges, but surely they are oranges and tangerines, similar, yet different in their small ways.

[jddh1]

What argument? This is like a cook baking a wonderful soufflé, then covering it in s--t. I was following the post, nodding my head and remarking to myself on many subjects. But when I read the highlighted part, I forget everything else. I don't remember the soufflé, I just remember that it was covered in s--t.

I guess you've lost your sense of humor on the 401.

Besides, the comment in bold was was for people like Isla-man. See, I came clean!

[andartop]

Given that a lot of Ferrari's brand value comes from its history, I 'd like to see them go back to their roots, that is sportscars and endurance races. So, definitely the LeMans series and any endurance event they can get into would be nice. They could even revive the world sportscar championship. A1GP sounds good, but I don't know how this would work since it's a nations' championship as someone else pointed out. Indycar wouldn't be a bad idea either: they definitely have huge interests to race in the US. 5-10 years out of F1 wouldn't hurt them that much provided they do keep racing elsewhere. By that time Max and Berine will probably be long gone (or are they?) and F1 will probably need Ferrari back that badly that they'll be ready to change all the regulations to fit whatever car Ferrari will want to race with!