2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[gridwalker]

Still, legislating it so that it is a percentage of total expenditure (rather than voluntary contributions) seems like a reasonable suggestion. Does the FIA have a suggestions box?

Oh ... no ... that would be way too much like consultation.

[gcdugas]

Boys, boys, are we forgetting that the teams put forth their proposal for a budget cut? This is all about power. Max ignores the teams completely and does whatever he wishes. Max want to force his will upon everyone in contravention to all written governing agreements and established procedure. It really has very little to do with budget caps. The teams are fed up and tired of being abused. In a better economy they can wink at Max's antics. But when money gets tight, they want to insure that the PR image, marketing cache and the spectacle are preserved. Max's goofy vision for F1 threatens all of this and his interference can no longer be tolerated.

[Afterburner]

haha, Hawian tropic girls??

For me all F1 pit babes are on pole position, no need to change regulations or budget caps...

[modbaraban]

haha, Hawian tropic girls??

For me all F1 pit babes are on pole position, no need to change regulations or budget caps...

Don't forget about Felipe-baby

[WhiteBlue]

To talk about a market system in F1 is grossly inadequate. The only market is the market of running a GP. The teams have long time ago constructed their oligopol with a hegemony by a few super ritch teams that got used to buy their way to success with automotive money or by taking bribes from FOM.

That system only started to slide when the que of successive Concord Agreements was terminated by the FIA. We are still experiencing the consequences of this strategy. I do not think that Ferrari and McLaren have a god given right to perpetuate the system they have exercised for the last 16 years.

It has often been said that the FIA should only be the referee in the rules department. Under ideal circumstances I agree with that view, but the circumstances are far away from ideal. The FIA needs the authority to set certain guidelines about safety, political questions like the ecological issues and the limits of resources a team can employ in a fair competition. If they cannot limit resources or force engine makers to supply all other teams the series had run itself to death long ago.

Unfortunately the exercise of those guidelines has been disregarded by the FOTA. They simply have not complied with the requests that were issued by the Federation in summer last year and to earlier requests to enable new entrants to enter F1. It is obvious that FOTA will never comply with those guideline requests hence we see a unilateral implementation of rules that would not happen under normal conditions.

All the journalists that use all the wonderfull FOTA hospitality all year long seem to have forgotten that FOTA is at fault in the first place and have forced the FIA to act by a lack of complience. This is not surprising because the FIA does not maintain huge motorhomes to wine and dine them. It is FOTO who keep them supplied with information, entertainment, food and drinks. So we should not be surprised that the majority of the press allways side with the big spenders in F1.

It takes a non nonsense guy like Niki Lauda who knows many sides of F1 and business to look through the smoke screen. The FIA has no alternative to the budget cap. It must be set in a way that it attracts new teams and stops the further pull out of the manufacturers. For me ProDrive is the litmus test of the right level of resource control. He wanted to enter F1 in 2007 for 2008 and he looked at Brawn in December. Every time he concluded that without rigid resource limitation in place he could not make the investment. If the FIA fudges the budget cap too much to please Ferrari and other big teams Richard will again withdraw his entry as will all other potential new teams. Max Mosley will have very little leeway in allowing FOTA more time to bring the budgets down. I see a maximum of one additional year (2010) and fullexercis of the budget cap in 2011 as the only compromise that will get the new entrants on board.

It will take Ferrari some kicking and screaming to accept that. They will have law suits and a war of words for several months now before they eventually will run out of further maneuvers. In that process Max will compromise towards the FOTA position until a balance is reached where only the most serious new entrants will remain and the FOTA teams will stay in F1. At least this is how I see how this is going tp play out over the season. One good thing is that the main technical corner stones are set and the cars can be designed for next year.

Refuelling will definetely go away as will race fuel qually. I don't think that it will make a big difference to the design if they eventually introduce some movable rear wings or not. Cars will be designed for non movable wings and will pick up performance advantages if they are agreed.

[Giblet]

I have to agree with your post, except the use of the words oligopol hegemony in the same sentence.

I usually don't care for Lauda or Stewart when they ramble, but quite often even in the dumb things they say, there is an underlying reason that should not be ignored.

[Scania]

IRL

[nudger]

i like the idea of IRL...it could really boost the exposure of that series overnight.
even if they stayed....assume eventually they all end up budget capped...is there still anything in the regulations to prevent them competing in other open wheel series? or perhaps that was from the old concord agreement, so they should be free to diversify.
be nice to see the likes of ferrari and mclaren racing in formula one and IRL..im sure the sponsors would be happy with that too.
what are the current irl regulations from that point of view? can teams still build their own chassis

EDIT...ok, forget IRL, i see its customer chassis series frozen untill 2013. shame.

[Conceptual]

I am sorry I ever brought up economics. I see that there are plenty of strongly held ideas that conflict. Maybe Max isn't the only one who believes in dictatorial centralized rule and that is sadder than the possible death of F1.

As long as the believer in dictatorial centralization is percieved as correct, they have won.

Good riddance to Ferrari by the way. It is my sincerest hope that Bernie goes with them, and F1 can be about racing again. Not a circus spectacle with underhanded backroom deals, and politics.

But, I'm sure that there will STILL be those people about... Vastly reduced in power due to enlightenment, but still trying to convert anyone who will listen to their so called logic.

[gcdugas]

OK so part of Max's strategy is to eliminate the two tiered system and out-wait the teams into compliance. He has now said 5/29 will come and go without most teams signing on.

The teams simply must set up their own series. If they don't F1 will degenerate into a GP2 level kit car series with no marketing cache to keep the manufacturer's involved.

Then there is the issue of governance. It is interesting that every team has had enough of the FIA's dictatorial attitude. I just can't see them yielding to Max's arbitrary whims any longer. They knew full well when they were scheming in their FOTA meetings that they had to be prepared if Max called their bluff. I see taking the two tiered system off the table as a ploy to divide the teams and lure Ferrari back. Toyota and Renault seem the least likely to go back. Toyota seem the most fed up with Max and Renault could stay involved through Red Bull only. What of the heretofore silent Germans BMW and Mercedes? Mercedes, which powers 30% of the grid has little love for their $100M man Max (Spa 2008 also) and would be the most keen to start a rival series or have Max replaced. Can I see them staying under Max's thumb in a scaled back sense? I can't say right now. It all depends on the resolve of the FOTA. Are they willing to take the "nuclear option" and break away? That is the big question. And I think the answer is yes unless they get a new Concorde Agreement granting them rule making authority and a bigger slice of the $$$ pie. Besides we have already seen how ineffective written agreements are at restraining Max's willfulness so what would be the point of yet another agreement that he will immediately breach as has been his pattern?

One other thing is this... If the teams intend to break away, then they all could start testing their 2010 cars which just might be VERY similar to their 2009 cars and there are more than a few teams which could be tempted to do that.

For the life of me I can't see why the FOTA haven't put forth a candidate to run against Max. With their muscle they could compel the constituent members of the FIA to vote their guy in. Unless they fully intent to set up their own series why not get two options going simultaneously?

So it has emerged that Max's strategy is to wait out the teams, take the two tiered nonsense off the table and cause divisions within the FOTA. It now appears that 5/29 will come and go with a whimper. Will there be any major announcements from the FOTA that are proactive or are they going to be solely reactive? Unless they are willing to go all the way with the nuclear option, Max will win again but F1 will certainly lose. Besides all this one has to ask the question... is it easier for a manufacturer to pull the plug and walk away from a 40M euro operation employing 100 people, or from a 200M euro operation employing 550 people? If F1 no longer has its cache, 40M euro is nothing to walk away from, that decision wouldn't even give one board member indigestion.

[chrys]

Good.....
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... r-all.html

Ed Gorman

......
If one good thing comes out of the present crisis in Formula One, it should be the end of the feather-bedding of Ferrari, once and for all. All teams should get their fair share of the financial pot in a transparant manner and no teams shoudld ever be given a secret right of veto over how the sport is governed. If Ferrari do not want to play a fair game, they should go elsewhere which they are threatening to do in any case. The problem with achieving this is that Mosley and Ecclestone have run the sport for years in a double act on the telephone which is largely unaccountable. Until both have them have gone, which is unlikely to happen in the near future, the backroom deals can be expected to continue and the sport will be the poorer for it.

[WhiteBlue]

Ferrari cannot be trusted as di Montezemolo's decisions in 2005 have clearly demonstrated. Ferrari will just stay long enough on board of a break away series as it takes to collect the bribe. Then the other FOTA members will be on their own.

No big surprise that Merc and BMW are not so keen to get in bed with Luca.

[gridwalker]

Good.....
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... r-all.html

Ed Gorman

......
If one good thing comes out of the present crisis in Formula One, it should be the end of the feather-bedding of Ferrari, once and for all. All teams should get their fair share of the financial pot in a transparant manner and no teams shoudld ever be given a secret right of veto over how the sport is governed. If Ferrari do not want to play a fair game, they should go elsewhere which they are threatening to do in any case. The problem with achieving this is that Mosley and Ecclestone have run the sport for years in a double act on the telephone which is largely unaccountable. Until both have them have gone, which is unlikely to happen in the near future, the backroom deals can be expected to continue and the sport will be the poorer for it.

After the number of times that I been caught up in debates about the FIA's perceived bias towards Ferrari over the years, these "revelations" are finally shedding light on some of the worst kept secrets in F1. Seeing as the deck is no longer stacked in their favour, will Ferrari just take their ball and head home?

Although I have had my issues with ferrari over the years, this was primarily caused by my perception of continual FIA bias towards them over many years. I sincerely hope that they can come back and PROVE that they can compete fairly and honourably in whatever new system is constructed.

You never know, I might even celebrate a Ferrari win under such circumstances. After all, if they are truely the best then they can show it on a level playing field : as the old saying goes, cream always rises to the top.

If they simply choose to walk away, I'm sure that it will do a large amount of damage to the competitive reputation that they've rebuilt over the last 10 years. If competition is out of the question when it isn't on Ferrari's own terms, then I'm sure that their legacy will be tainted by the revelations of favouritism, causing subtle but cumulative damage to their brand value.

After all, would they want their "Era Of Ferrari" to be summed up with the following images?

[Richard]

Good.....
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... r-all.html

Ed Gorman

... are we supposed to be surprised at this?

There does seem to be a new poltical landscape in formation, hence the end of the old deals.

What strikes me is the silence of Mercedes on the matter.


### Warning - the next bit is aimed at those who wear tin foil hats ###

People with a suspcious mind and idle speculation might end up thinking ......... Why did Ferrari feel forced to break cover, while Merc stay silent? Are we seeing Ferrari asserting strngth, or are they throwing their toys out the pram because they are no longer favoured? Are Merc being tactful due to the MacLaren "issues", or do they know something that the others don't? Have Ferrari been "dumped"? Ripe ground for conspiracy theories ...

[chrys]

What strikes me is the silence of Mercedes on the matter.

Google will translate from German
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 51908.html