2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[gridwalker]

To use your analogy, it's a bit like a bigamist saying "I'll marry you, but that's my favourite wife over there. She'll get all of the sex, but you can still have free room and board."

And that exactly how it was from MM and BE point of view.
BTW other wives seem to not care. No single team manager made a fuss about what BE said.
It's just MM thinks he can do good without his favorite wife, smartest wife, French wife and fattest wife.
Yeah, and if you recall mass-dampers ban, look at Australia 2007 and movable floor. Or 2005 and IR tire ovens.
You know, it's endless story.

Considering that Bernie was addressing comments that Montezemelo had made as chairman of FOTA (rather than solely as Ferrari president) and that Bernie followed up his comments about "all the extra things Ferrari have had for years" with the statement “What he should do, rather than asking for money, with all the extra money Ferrari gets, he should share all that amongst the teams”, the other FOTA members were left in a position where they couldn't really say anything.

It's a divide and conquer routine, seen time & again in union breaking : if FOTA turned on their representative, then they compromised their own negotiating position.

Sometimes, the wisest thing you can say is nothing at all.

[timbo]

the other FOTA members were left in a position where they couldn't really say anything.

But they can elect new chairman if they see Luca's position as unacceptable.

Yeah, and what problem does Renault, RB and Toyota have with new rules? What special privileges did they have?

[gridwalker]

I never said that the special privileges issue was the sole reason for the teams to be leaving F1, nor did I link this issue to the other teams wishing to walk away.

The relevance of the special deal is detailed in the link that chrys posted : the fact that these private agreements have been abrogated through the FIA's actions and that Ferrari feels that this gives them a right to go to court to request an injunction.

None of the other teams have done this, JUST Ferrari - THAT is the difference.

None of the other teams are bound by an agreement for next year, due to the expiration of the Concord agreement, however Ferrari believe that they have a legal basis for intervention.

I guess that they must have something on paper that the other teams don't ...

[mcdenife]

the other FOTA members were left in a position where they couldn't really say anything.

But they can elect new chairman if they see Luca's position as unacceptable.

Yeah, and what problem does Renault, RB and Toyota have with new rules? What special privileges did they have?

Besides, electing a new chairman now would then play into the hands of FOM/FIA which is their (FIA/FOM) real intention anyway (ie cause disent and distabilise FOTA). The problem the others have with the new rules, in addition to handing more power (by way of their books) to the FIA, is the unilateral way the rules were imposed. At this point, its not about special privileges. That they can deal with later.

[u401768]

All this Anti Ferrari stuff is really frustrating – there is a huge amount of history and antagonism going back many years. Ferrari are no better and no worse than any other team

With Ferrari having the special relationship/contract, it has left them as the ONLY team that can take the FIA to court for breach of contract (also the reason the 2 tier rule was done). And none of the teams want the FIA dictating to them, and for ever changing the rules - So it’s for the good of the many in this case.

As to the FIA being Ferrari supports - there have been as many things against Ferrari as for them, and no different to any other team. IE, the semi auto gearboxes were going to be outlawed, up to the point where Ferrari fought back. If this had happened there would have been no Williams 15, and 15B!!

The Ferrari fuel injected turbo to prevent lag - outlawed because the FIA said it was a 2nd engine – even though there was no option to take power from it!!. The honeycomb chaise - was nearly outlawed as well as an exotic material. And the list could go on and on and on.

Ferrari have been around a long time, so have weight, knowledge and experience - so they will always be in the think of things, plus the historic issue of NOT siding with the English teams or the FIA - but sitting in the middle and rocking the seesaw, the way they wanted it to go. Any other team could also have aligned it self in the same way, Renault were the only other team to take this stance - and for the same reason.

All the teams, have done what was best for them self’s (individually) with out exceptions up to the introduction of FOTA.

For the first time, we have FOTA - and the teams are all aligned, so all we are seeing is the new land scope emerging.

[gridwalker]

All this Anti Ferrari stuff is really frustrating – there is a huge amount of history and antagonism going back many years. Ferrari are no better and no worse than any other team

With Ferrari having the special relationship/contract, it has left them as the ONLY team that can take the FIA to court for breach of contract (also the reason the 2 tier rule was done). And none of the teams want the FIA dictating to them, and for ever changing the rules - So it’s for the good of the many in this case.

As to the FIA being Ferrari supports - there have been as many things against Ferrari as for them, and no different to any other team. IE, the semi auto gearboxes were going to be outlawed, up to the point where Ferrari fought back. If this had happened there would have been no Williams 15, and 15B!!

The Ferrari fuel injected turbo to prevent lag - outlawed because the FIA said it was a 2nd engine – even though there was no option to take power from it!!. The honeycomb chaise - was nearly outlawed as well as an exotic material. And the list could go on and on and on.

Ferrari have been around a long time, so have weight, knowledge and experience - so they will always be in the think of things, plus the historic issue of NOT siding with the English teams or the FIA - but sitting in the middle and rocking the seesaw, the way they wanted it to go. Any other team could also have aligned it self in the same way, Renault were the only other team to take this stance - and for the same reason.

All the teams, have done what was best for them self’s (individually) with out exceptions up to the introduction of FOTA.

For the first time, we have FOTA - and the teams are all aligned, so all we are seeing is the new land scope emerging.

You don't have to be anti-Ferrari to be pro-equality ...

You know, as in "all men equal under the law".

I want to see one set of regulations, one set of rules, one set of rewards for success, one set of penalties for transgression.

If we don't have that, then we're not watching a sport : it can be no more than a farce.

Bring on the FOTA split. I want to see a series of the teams, run by the teams FOR the teams ...

*cough*

I might have gotten slightly carried away there ... but at least my point is clear

[u401768]

I do agree with the idea 100% but the problem with all sport is its never happens – be it money, build (a Mr U Bolt and running) – or a flaming good idea (ground effects, or the true fan car in the Chaparral 2J case) – but I do think the FIA need to pull there noses out this. Its not as if we haven’t been here before – Mercedes and Auto Union out spent every one else by a margined that even makes the Honda (400 Mil) to Spyker (about 30 mil) look like a tiny difference. There will be a bang, a year of not many people being there to race and then a stead climb back, till next time the bubble goes bang.

Is it ideal – no but its not wouldn’t be the disaster that is currently being made of F1 by the FIA.

[mcdenife]

I want to see a series of the teams, run by the teams FOR the teams ...

and thats why a FOTA split would be a disaster 'cos then its even more unlikely there will ever be such a series.

[ernos5]

Ferrari lose court case






http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 25,00.html


What does this leave F1 next year as?

[natef1]

Ferrari lose court case






http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 25,00.html


What does this leave F1 next year as?

Either a huge joke without most of the big manufacturers or a big joke on Ferrari as they steadily backtrack. One or t'other as I see it.

[axle]

Ferrari lose court case


http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 25,00.html
What does this leave F1 next year as?

In a bit of a state. To put it mildly. I don't get why they didn't go after the FIA on the fact that the EU ruled the the teams should set the rules and the FIA meerly oversee them back in 2002!!

see pitpass for details on that one. But it strikes me funny that the EU ruling has not been leveraged.

The teams allowed the FIA to set the rules as they in general agreed with them, till now.

[b0son]

If Ferrari pull out and RB, Renault and Toyota make good on their threat and follow suit, interesting to see what happens next.

Even if the FIA have four teams ready to sign on the dotted line for 2010, so what? None have the manpower or infrastructure to compete at the top level. Does F1 need another four Force Indias?

Will McLaren leave too? Its no secret there's no love lost between them and the FIA, and although they're minding their Ps and Qs, I'm sure they'll want to run in the championship that is the most competitive.

I cant see the FIA's 2010 version of F1 being anything other than a bigger budget GP2 series. Customer engines from Toyota, Ferrari and Renault will probably be unavailable (and possibly Mercedes if McLaren jump ship). And if it is, how many race organizers will want to stage it at Bernie's exorbitant prices?

Perhaps if the breakaway happens, we'll finally see permanent qualified stewards, technical stability and technical freedom that returns F1 back to the glory days of motorsports innovation.

If this isnt all just posturing, it may well be the best thing that could have happened to F1.....

[djos]

Ferrari lose court case






http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 25,00.html


What does this leave F1 next year as?

Bugger, I was hoping for Max to get a beating he wouldn't enjoy!

[WhiteBlue]

It means that the court did not see a violation in the 2005 contract between Ferrari and the FIA. We only know that the FIA argued that Ferrari did not make use of some of their veto rights by disregarding opportunities to voice their objections. Perhaps they have not used the agreed mechanisms by working exclusively through FOTA.

The consequence should be that the closing date for applying to the 2010 championship on 29th of May should stand. This is good news because it prevents further delay which can only drive a way new entrants that wait for rule stability to decide their investment. Dave Richards has already come out publicly saying that it is impossible to make good decisions with the uncertainty what will happen in terms of further compromises.

The sooner this whole process runs its course the better for F1.

[axle]

Williams/Brawn will clean up in 2010!