2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[dfegan358]

In my opinion these new regulations have been a huge let down. Ross brawn talked constantly about how they were going to revolutionise the racing on track, but it’s not much better imo. They can follow closer but there is not exactly a lot of hugely exciting track battles compared with the previous generation and too much emphasis on tyre deg or certain cars preferring different compounds at different times.

[Hammerfist]

Even the ability to follow closer has taken a huge step back this year compared to last. Look how long it took max to clear much slower cars and he was complaining about how hard it was to follow. In Bahrain perez said the same. Both leclerc and hamilton could not follow their slower teammates and destroyed their tires doing so. So we are back to square one with the racing but now you have one car that can not be caught with the cost cap rules. So yeah bravo Ross Brawn.

[Dr. Acula]

Even the ability to follow closer has taken a huge step back this year compared to last. Look how long it took max to clear much slower cars and he was complaining about how hard it was to follow. In Bahrain perez said the same. Both leclerc and hamilton could not follow their slower teammates and destroyed their tires doing so. So we are back to squate one with the racing but now you have one car that can not be caught with the cost cap rules. So yeah bravo Ross Brawn.

Well, Jeddah isn't exactly great to begin with when it comes to following or overtaking an other car. The track almost exclusevely is made up of fast corners. The average speed is almost as fast as in Monza and in fast corners you lose the most downforce if some other car is in front of you.
But i think it's funny that people don't see the constant in the problem.

2010: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."
2016: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."
2023: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."

I really wonder what the problem could be...

[chrisc90]

Wasn’t it only last season everyone was praising the regulations?

I wonder if there’s any relation to people thinking the regs were a success and the success of their team.

[imugli]

Even the ability to follow closer has taken a huge step back this year compared to last. Look how long it took max to clear much slower cars and he was complaining about how hard it was to follow. In Bahrain perez said the same. Both leclerc and hamilton could not follow their slower teammates and destroyed their tires doing so. So we are back to squate one with the racing but now you have one car that can not be caught with the cost cap rules. So yeah bravo Ross Brawn.

Well, Jeddah isn't exactly great to begin with when it comes to following or overtaking an other car. The track almost exclusevely is made up of fast corners. The average speed is almost as fast as in Monza and in fast corners you lose the most downforce if some other car is in front of you.
But i think it's funny that people don't see the constant in the problem.

2010: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."
2016: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."
2023: "we can't follow a car in front, we destroy the tyres if we try."

I really wonder what the problem could be...

Yep tyres. But let's not also forget the cars are now oversize and overweight.

The difference in size between, say, /88/89/90/91 and now is ridiculous, but the circuits haven't gotten any wider, so there are just physically less gaps to go for, even if the tyres didn't burn up after 5 laps of sitting behind someone.

[basti313]

Majority of overtakes yesterday were either uncontested, or just required little or no driving skill whatsoever.

Is this a complaint about the rules or the track? We were on a track that only allows for DRS overtakes...in the time before they had DRS this track would have been a race like Hungary or Monaco nearly without overtakes.
There are certainly errors on this track...like the last corner that favors a late apex too much. But I think the comparison with the term "year" in it makes no sense.

In my opinion these new regulations have been a huge let down. Ross brawn talked constantly about how they were going to revolutionise the racing on track, but it’s not much better imo. They can follow closer but there is not exactly a lot of hugely exciting track battles compared with the previous generation and too much emphasis on tyre deg or certain cars preferring different compounds at different times.

??? Did you miss the race in Bahrain? Overtakes in many different corners...before 2022 it was simply impossible to overtake into turn 10 if the car in front still had 4 tires on....

Even the ability to follow closer has taken a huge step back this year compared to last.

Well, now we are right in the team thread:
- Mercedes got the lex-Mercedes on the floor and made nothing out of it.
- TD039, which was commented by Toto with words like it was a big cheat...just killed Ferrari a bit.

These are two rule changes or clarifications, that certainly reduce the effect of the floor. Reducing the effect of the floor means you need to bold on more downforce on the wings which reduces the ability to follow closer.

Getting two rule changes that in principle contradict the goal of the new rules. Well done...

I really wonder what the problem could be...

“Toto, its called a motor race. We went car racing.”

Or: Do you know any professional racing series in which they can follow without hurting the tires?

[mendis]

Without SC he would be long behind in an unrecoverable place.

So? Very much like Russell last year, before SC’s bailed him out time and time again. On at least three occasions last year, Russell was absolutely nowhere (AUS, Miami, Zandvoort come to mind) and then suddenly bang a SC, and he ends up leapfrogging Hamilton. But when you argue that was the reason he was able to beat Hamilton last year, it’s funnily not listened to. I wonder why.

I get this is your week, cos last week you had nothing to say, but let’s have it both ways.

You need to read once again what I responded to.

[F1Krof]

Wasn’t it only last season everyone was praising the regulations?

I wonder if there’s any relation to people thinking the regs were a success and the success of their team.

Nah man c'mon. You don't have to advocate for me personally. As an active F1 enthusiast fan since 1992, in my opinion, the 2022 regs are among the worst pieces of technical regulations ever. I don't want to argue the technical parts of it which is completely rubbish, but even worse the principles behind which are completely driven by commercial greed facilitated by quick fix artificial tools like -> cost cap, wind-tunnel cap, CFD, aero devices, weak tires, safety car deployments, sprint races etc. Heck, they've already started to advocate for active aero regulations, which if they really implement, I swear to God I'm gonna stop watching F1 all together.

If indeed was everyone, then I stand alone, please don't put my name into "Everyone" -> hell no!!! Not F1Krof.

[chrisc90]

Don’t want to venture too far away from the team topic. However, nothing personal.
What do you propose other than a wind tunnel limitation, CFD limitations, cost cap etc to bring the playing field more level?

[mzso]

Anyone who harshly criticizes Hamilton only proves how many complexes he has built up on that person. Every one forget what he achieved, but lets trash on him that the new F1 Age way.

I do remember. He ably outperformed Bottas in two person championships and Rosberg more narrowly 3 out of four times.
Also a lot of dirty moves and whining, and politicizing. No wonder he's not as popular as he could be.

[ValeVida46]

Wasn’t it only last season everyone was praising the regulations?

I wonder if there’s any relation to people thinking the regs were a success and the success of their team.

Everyone? Not really. Something can start off well and gradually decline.

It's a new set of regs and they did task the regs to follow others more closely, but as we have seen from the last few races of last year and 2023, cars are still affected by wake which translates into added tyre wear.

There's also another issue that I have seen written fleetingly on this pages. That is the Customer/Manufacturer dynamic within the budget cap.
Firstly this has a quite large bias toward the customer. In Mercedes case, they design and build suspension and gearbox for the Aston martin team. Brixworth supplies engines and radiators.
They will do so at a price.
However, will Aston benefit from getting a cheaper deal for half their car and then have a greater allowance for racing? They do not need to spend money on a department, staff and tooling and can be more aggressive with the remainder of their budget in other areas.

This can be the case for AlphaTauri/RB relationship and Ferrari/Haas/Alpha too.

How can a ruleset that's meant to be fair to all, be left riddled with imbalance and also be open to exploitation.
Note ~I'm not casting aspersions to any team, just that with the system as it stands... it doesn't take a genius to work out how it can be manipulated.

[mzso]

Wasn’t it only last season everyone was praising the regulations?

I wonder if there’s any relation to people thinking the regs were a success and the success of their team.

I didn't. And Vettel was critical. It seems like nowadays, whatever it is, the critical voices are right.

I think the racing ability is still weak... It was better in the late nineties early 00s without any DRS.
If today they disable the DRS, overtaking practically ceases...

[mzso]

Firstly this has a quite large bias toward the customer. In Mercedes case, they design and build suspension and gearbox for the Aston martin team. Brixworth supplies engines and radiators.

Engine development is not covered by the cost cap. And buying suspension, gearbox, etc is covered. So I don't see how customers have an advantage. I'm quite sure Mercedes or other suppliers don't sell the parts so cheap as to disadvantage themselves.

[Cassius]

Firstly this has a quite large bias toward the customer. In Mercedes case, they design and build suspension and gearbox for the Aston martin team. Brixworth supplies engines and radiators.

Engine development is not covered by the cost cap. And buying suspension, gearbox, etc is covered. So I don't see how customers have an advantage. I'm quite sure Mercedes or other suppliers don't sell the parts so cheap as to disadvantage themselves.

Suppliers of gearboxes/suspensions get a fixed agreed amount. FIA can see the development costs of these parts in their cost cap evaluation so my guess is there is an opportunity for the FIA to adapt the amount if needed.

If a customer of these parts feels they can make it for less they are free to do so (e.g Alfa last year started producing their own gearbox).

[basti313]

Firstly this has a quite large bias toward the customer. In Mercedes case, they design and build suspension and gearbox for the Aston martin team. Brixworth supplies engines and radiators.

What???
Firstly....if you design the part, you are the boss. Merc designs the suspension to fit its aero, Aston needs to fit its aero to the suspension. Same for the engine, they are squeezing the zero-pod engine into their RedBull aero.
That a customer team is slightly faster than the works team has a simple reason:
Merc screwed up. They should be where RedBull is. Then Aston would be where a good customer team naturally sits...around a second behind per lap.

I think the racing ability is still weak... It was better in the late nineties early 00s without any DRS.
If today they disable the DRS, overtaking practically ceases...

You take the early 00 with practically ceased overtaking as a good example? Wasn't this the time at which a 1sec per lap faster Schumacher was hanging behind Nando for half a race at Imola?
Or the iconic move at Spa by Hakkinen....also easily 0.5sec faster and could only overtake AT SPA because of a backmarker standing in the way.
Your comparison is great.