Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

[lio007]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

[vorticism]

Edit: moved to another thread.

[Bill]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

[lio007]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

It was meant with pure V6 power.

[Bill]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

It was meant with pure V6 power.

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

[AR3-GP]

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

It was meant with pure V6 power.

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.

[Cs98]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

Do you have a link to the interview?

[Cs98]

It was meant with pure V6 power.

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.

Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.

[lio007]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

Do you have a link to the interview?

Here we go: starting at 1:12:00
https://www.servustv.com/sport/v/aaf64cth1nj014j5upg7/
...but very likely geo locked.

[Cs98]

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

Do you have a link to the interview?

Here we go: starting at 1:12:00
https://www.servustv.com/sport/v/aaf64cth1nj014j5upg7/
...but very likely geo locked.

NordVPN

[lio007]

Some news about a Ferrari engineer:
He was there until last September and was Fluid dynamic and combustion Team leader - F1 engine R&D


https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10491548/

[wuzak]

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

It was meant with pure V6 power.

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

Lots of detail changes - lower energy flow by ~1/3, lower compression ratio, lower allowed MAP/boost, regulated bottom end.

[wuzak]

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.

Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.

FIA projecting around 400kW for the ICE. That is 48% thermal efficiency, compared to current PUs >50% when operating as turbo-compound.

The driver will be at full throttle when the MGUK goes into generator mode (maximum 100kW), then lift and coast up to 350kW and then braking for 350kW regeneration.

[Bill]

2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.

Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.

the current aero rules where supposed to bring the grid much closer and avoid any team dominating.the goal was within 0.2 sec gap but failed still over 1 sec.the point is ones you get hundred of engineers thinking about problems you never know what they will come up with.the honda advantage is more than just mguh .it have good reliability so it means the can push pu harder and get most out of it.packaging too .having good ers means you carry less fuel which translate into weight saving and good lap time.the video f1 made says the 2026 pu challenge will be on electronic systems i guess it means the battle will be fought on electronic hardware and software

[saviour stivala]

Pushing forward the narrative, this time - 'using the ICE to harvest around the race track' (at end of straight this time instead of at part throttle as said before), is totally contrary to the spirit of the formula one ERS energy harvesting intentions. Furthermore, the Red Bull declared simulation findings has been declared as 'incorrect simulations' by the people that matter.