2023 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, July 28 - 30

[Spoutnik]

[Just_a_fan]

Its the typical la source incident.

Initially it appears you can go in 3 wide, then it pinches and collisions happen.

I feel like Sainz was expecting Hamilton to turn in more than he did. Sainz steered in expecting to be pinched, and Piastri was there with the typical nose in, which is real dangerous. I feel Sainz in the end caused it, but in that 3 wide situation happening so fast on cold tires could not be penalized for it. Its almost impossible to keep track of the outside and inside of the car at the same time and perfectly position it. This is the typical first lap, first corner incident, hence another good call from the stewards, they got the critical calls right this weekend.

As Davidson showed, Piastri headed towards T1 with a lot of open space in front of him. Then Sainz dived across in front of him with a tyre locked and headed across the kerb. Piastri had nowhere to go.

The stewards had a fairly easy one there - racing incident call is easy when one driver is out and the other is tumbling through the field with a very wounded car. Neither would have gained or been disadvantaged by a penalty/lack of penalty so the stewards had an easy call on that one.

It is a classic Spa lap 1 La Source incident.

[napoleon1981]

Its the typical la source incident.

Initially it appears you can go in 3 wide, then it pinches and collisions happen.

I feel like Sainz was expecting Hamilton to turn in more than he did. Sainz steered in expecting to be pinched, and Piastri was there with the typical nose in, which is real dangerous. I feel Sainz in the end caused it, but in that 3 wide situation happening so fast on cold tires could not be penalized for it. Its almost impossible to keep track of the outside and inside of the car at the same time and perfectly position it. This is the typical first lap, first corner incident, hence another good call from the stewards, they got the critical calls right this weekend.

As Davidson showed, Piastri headed towards T1 with a lot of open space in front of him. Then Sainz dived across in front of him with a tyre locked and headed across the kerb. Piastri had nowhere to go.

The stewards had a fairly easy one there - racing incident call is easy when one driver is out and the other is tumbling through the field with a very wounded car. Neither would have gained or been disadvantaged by a penalty/lack of penalty so the stewards had an easy call on that one.

It is a classic Spa lap 1 La Source incident.

Davidson must have forgotten Hamilton (i did not see his analysis but saw others). You could have penalized Sainz. That being said, its the classic la source incident, Sainz tried the best he could and in a next situation could do the same thing again. Penalizing someone makes sense when there is a lesson to be learned, which implies Sainz deliberately cut off Piastri. I doubt he did. He was watching Hamilton, not expecting a half hearted attempt from a rookie. The penalty was the damage to his sidepod.

[Sieper]

Exactly. Look, Piastri could have saved his race, but instead was brave.

This is like we all know what happens here in t1. It is also why the start is an adrenaline rush. Especially for the people in cars that can’t help them passed people they MUST take risks, and they did. Sainz was not fully in control of his car, but to give a penalty, it is turn one and he later had to retire in a chanceless position due to it.

Maybe yes, but the corner was being made tight and Piastri also could have aborted. Indeed an easier call to simply let go.

[jz11]

Can you dive bomb a dive bomb?

Piastri before the corner was very reasonable imho. And then Sainz came in towards him with his frontwheels locked up and smoking. Piastri at that point did indeed decide to try and hang on, and that was wrong, he should have evacuated the corner and let Sainz who misjudged it badly through, but that really was a split-second decision forced upon him.

So, a good learning moment that I think he will learn from. Sainz will not change anymore.

those 2 can't tell a 1st lap racing incident from putting too much faith in front tyres while trying to carry too much speed through a corner and think they are clever with their silly kindergarten level passive aggressive posts

I think that there was even an official statement about how such things are handled in starts and restarts, basically - a bit more aggressiveness is fine, to an extent

Sainz cut across with no regard that someone might be there, and Piastri made a very opportunistic move, race ruined for both, good thing they didn't take anyone with them

“passive aggressive posts”

more aggressiveness truly is allowed on the first lap as you say! Silly maneuvers with no chance of succeeding aren’t allowed though! Piastri was driving into a disappearing gap and he knew it! There was no reason to release the brakes and find himself there…! I remember Max and Kimi (or Vettel) having a similar accident back in 2016-2017 I think…

Piastri is a rookie though, and Sainz had half a cars width to Lewis as far as I can tell from replays, maybe it could have been enough to avoid that much damage

but in no way I would say Lewis had to move left to accommodate both Sainz and Piastri (someone previously said Lewis pinched Sainz here), which is what some suggested Perez had to do in the sprint, so I really don't understand your and the other comment about how this compares to that situation and penalties have to have been handed out presumably to Piastri, look at the entry where Pisastri is to Sainz and Sainz to Hamilton

I think Sainz simply tried to kill 2 birds, turn the car quicker to get a straighter exit to accelerate quicker out of the corner and pass Lewis, and shut the door for Piastri, judging from the post race interview Sainz saw him there actually, Piastri was more or less a passenger when Sainz cut across, and as I said - typical 1st lap incident, and involving a rookie, which in no way compares to the sprint incident


haven't seen the red arrow camera angle, just the green one, which is 3rd pic

[AMG.Tzan]

those 2 can't tell a 1st lap racing incident from putting too much faith in front tyres while trying to carry too much speed through a corner and think they are clever with their silly kindergarten level passive aggressive posts

I think that there was even an official statement about how such things are handled in starts and restarts, basically - a bit more aggressiveness is fine, to an extent

Sainz cut across with no regard that someone might be there, and Piastri made a very opportunistic move, race ruined for both, good thing they didn't take anyone with them

“passive aggressive posts”

more aggressiveness truly is allowed on the first lap as you say! Silly maneuvers with no chance of succeeding aren’t allowed though! Piastri was driving into a disappearing gap and he knew it! There was no reason to release the brakes and find himself there…! I remember Max and Kimi (or Vettel) having a similar accident back in 2016-2017 I think…

Piastri is a rookie though, and Sainz had half a cars width to Lewis as far as I can tell from replays, maybe it could have been enough to avoid that much damage

but in no way I would say Lewis had to move left to accommodate both Sainz and Piastri (someone previously said Lewis pinched Sainz here), which is what some suggested Perez had to do in the sprint, so I really don't understand your and the other comment about how this compares to that situation and penalties have to have been handed out presumably to Piastri, look at the entry where Pisastri is to Sainz and Sainz to Hamilton

I think Sainz simply tried to kill 2 birds, turn the car quicker to get a straighter exit to accelerate quicker out of the corner and pass Lewis, and shut the door for Piastri, judging from the post race interview Sainz saw him there actually, Piastri was more or less a passenger when Sainz cut across, and as I said - typical 1st lap incident, and involving a rookie, which in no way compares to the sprint incident

https://i.imgur.com/66c0QK6.jpg
haven't seen the red arrow camera angle, just the green one, which is 3rd pic
https://i.imgur.com/YN454eJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HdxFAg0.jpg

How is Lewis supposed to know where Piastri is though? He’s way out of his sight in his blind spot and probably even behind Sainz’s car from Lewis’s point of view! This camera angle makes it easy for us to spot everyone but I would imagine it isn’t that easy for the drivers to know exactly where every single one of their competitors are!

Sainz looked quite out of control to me since he started locking up and then I thought he would crash into the side of Lewis! Then Piastri thought he could take advantage of the inside but he probably didn't take into account Lewis being there!

So that’s why I expected a penalty for Piastri! He could see both Sainz locking up and Hamilton already turning so there was no point in releasing the brakes and going for the inside! Whereas Hamilton could only see Sainz in his mirrors and he left enough space for Sainz.

[Willy]

Going for a gap on the inside of that hairpin tight corner was attempting suicide. Only inexperienced go there. Max has done that in his early years and learnt it well. Piastri should have known, but he went anyway. He can keep blaming Sainz all day long, but it's just common sense. Hopefully it will make him avoid that in future.

[Oleo]

Hamiltons role in this should not be ignored. Not saying he does anything wrong, he can do what he did.

How is it Hamilton's fault? Sainz went for a dive bomb move - his inside tyre was locked and smoking - and cut across Piastri who had nowhere to go.

I literally said its not his fault.
Sainz drives a crazy line as he often does (CotA), with a lockup. Piastri does the rookie mistake, like Verstappen and others have done in earlier years.
However, knowing you are the outside car leaving barely space for 1 car at the apex is very minimal and contributes to Sainz having to go over the kerb and colliding with Piastri. Look at literally every other car on the outside and compare with Hamiltons line and how all other cars get through the corner safely.

But like I said, Hamilton can 100% do that and is not at fault. Its just that his actions have consequences, I'd prefer if drivers try to leave a bit more space at the start, something I dislike about Verstappen as well. Live and let live.

How is Lewis supposed to know where Piastri is though? He’s way out of his sight in his blind spot and probably even behind Sainz’s car from Lewis’s point of view! This camera angle makes it easy for us to spot everyone but I would imagine it isn’t that easy for the drivers to know exactly where every single one of their competitors are!

Thats the problem, he can not know, but he can assume. You can be sure there is gonna be 1 car on your inside when you go outside. You also just crossed over the track and made extra meters, if the car behind has a slightly better start (Piastri being +-15(?) years younger means he probably has a better reaction time) there could be a second car. Why not leave a little bit more space, you have tons of it on the outside and it does not compromise your corner, while you risk a domino effect of collisions hitting your car as well.

[AMG.Tzan]

Hamiltons role in this should not be ignored. Not saying he does anything wrong, he can do what he did.

How is it Hamilton's fault? Sainz went for a dive bomb move - his inside tyre was locked and smoking - and cut across Piastri who had nowhere to go.

I literally said its not his fault.
Sainz drives a crazy line as he often does (CotA), with a lockup. Piastri does the rookie mistake, like Verstappen and others have done in earlier years.
However, knowing you are the outside car leaving barely space for 1 car at the apex is very minimal and contributes to Sainz having to go over the kerb and colliding with Piastri. Look at literally every other car on the outside and compare with Hamiltons line and how all other cars get through the corner safely.

But like I said, Hamilton can 100% do that and is not at fault. Its just that his actions have consequences, I'd prefer if drivers try to leave a bit more space at the start, something I dislike about Verstappen as well. Live and let live.

How is Lewis supposed to know where Piastri is though? He’s way out of his sight in his blind spot and probably even behind Sainz’s car from Lewis’s point of view! This camera angle makes it easy for us to spot everyone but I would imagine it isn’t that easy for the drivers to know exactly where every single one of their competitors are!

Thats the problem, he can not know, but he can assume. You can be sure there is gonna be 1 car on your inside when you go outside. You also just crossed over the track and made extra meters, if the car behind has a slightly better start (Piastri being +-15(?) years younger means he probably has a better reaction time) there could be a second car. Why not leave a little bit more space, you have tons of it on the outside and it does not compromise your corner, while you risk a domino effect of collisions hitting your car as well.

That’s what I’m saying! He left enough space for one car! That was Sainz! When they started to turn there was only Sainz and Lewis there…Piastri came late and there was no chance of making it!

Can’t believe how Hamilton has ended up responsible for an irrelevant incident!
People think that probably Lewis should race for the others and take care of them so that they don’t crash…because they probably can’t take care of themselves or they take risks for no reason!

Lewis has no part in this incident! I don’t know how some of you came to that conclusion! The driver who is behind sees what’s happening in front and can act properly before going full attack! Same goes for the public roads! The one from behind is always responsible for the accident…not the one in front!

[basti313]

Going for a gap on the inside of that hairpin tight corner was attempting suicide. Only inexperienced go there. Max has done that in his early years and learnt it well. Piastri should have known, but he went anyway. He can keep blaming Sainz all day long, but it's just common sense. Hopefully it will make him avoid that in future.

Exactly this.I wanted to post the same...
You could nicely see how far someone like Hamilton or Verstappen stays away from this suicide apex once they are not in the lead. On the other hand it is clear that Sainz is there.
I do not know what Piastri was trying there. With his rear wing he was always a sitting duck on the straight like Norris. So compromising T1 by taking a much too narrow approach was even more stupid. If there would have been any plan for this corner it should have been not to outbreak yourself on the inside, but rather be on the outside to get a better exit and hope for slipstream.

[Sieper]

Both Norris and Piastri want to show who is the best talent. Norris already arrived imho, but OK, this is a super high benchmark he is now up against. They both want to pull out results that can perhaps not be achieved. Piastri had a split second to abort, but tried to make it work. it didn't. live and learn.

[Willy]

Both Norris and Piastri want to show who is the best talent. Norris already arrived imho, but OK, this is a super high benchmark he is now up against. They both want to pull out results that can perhaps not be achieved. Piastri had a split second to abort, but tried to make it work. it didn't. live and learn.

It was clear throughout the weekend that if it was dry, McLaren would be no match to Ferrari or Mercedes. There was no contest. Norris' early race showing made that clear. Still going for an aggressive opening corner against the Ferraris doesn't reflect well on Oscar.

[Oleo]

How is it Hamilton's fault? Sainz went for a dive bomb move - his inside tyre was locked and smoking - and cut across Piastri who had nowhere to go.

I literally said its not his fault.
Sainz drives a crazy line as he often does (CotA), with a lockup. Piastri does the rookie mistake, like Verstappen and others have done in earlier years.
However, knowing you are the outside car leaving barely space for 1 car at the apex is very minimal and contributes to Sainz having to go over the kerb and colliding with Piastri. Look at literally every other car on the outside and compare with Hamiltons line and how all other cars get through the corner safely.

But like I said, Hamilton can 100% do that and is not at fault. Its just that his actions have consequences, I'd prefer if drivers try to leave a bit more space at the start, something I dislike about Verstappen as well. Live and let live.

How is Lewis supposed to know where Piastri is though? He’s way out of his sight in his blind spot and probably even behind Sainz’s car from Lewis’s point of view! This camera angle makes it easy for us to spot everyone but I would imagine it isn’t that easy for the drivers to know exactly where every single one of their competitors are!

Thats the problem, he can not know, but he can assume. You can be sure there is gonna be 1 car on your inside when you go outside. You also just crossed over the track and made extra meters, if the car behind has a slightly better start (Piastri being +-15(?) years younger means he probably has a better reaction time) there could be a second car. Why not leave a little bit more space, you have tons of it on the outside and it does not compromise your corner, while you risk a domino effect of collisions hitting your car as well.

That’s what I’m saying! He left enough space for one car! That was Sainz! When they started to turn there was only Sainz and Lewis there…Piastri came late and there was no chance of making it!

Can’t believe how Hamilton has ended up responsible for an irrelevant incident!
People think that probably Lewis should race for the others and take care of them so that they don’t crash…because they probably can’t take care of themselves or they take risks for no reason!

Lewis has no part in this incident! I don’t know how some of you came to that conclusion! The driver who is behind sees what’s happening in front and can act properly before going full attack! Same goes for the public roads! The one from behind is always responsible for the accident…not the one in front!

Stop trolling, start reading. I have said each and every time HAMILTON IS NOT RESPONSIBLE!!!
Compare the 3 cars here:





vs the 4 cars here:





Hamilton (outside) takes a similar line as Alonso (middle)

There can be 2 cars on your inside. Taking a line that barely leaves space on the inside for one is likely to cause problems for others, which is what happened. Its perfectly fine to take that risk, cause he was ahead of both and he did leave space for a car. Its Sainz or Piastri's fault.

But actions have consequences, events are interconnected. Leaving more space, means all 3 cars can make the corner. Leaving this amount of space makes it impossible.
Hamilton is squeezing a bit, but leaves enough space and gets away without damage, despite the cars on the inside colliding, same as Perez took a risk on saturday, which cost him damage, because the car on the inside was not able to make the corner.

Same goes for the public roads! The one from behind is always responsible for the accident…not the one in front!

Not if someone cuts you off. Disclaimer not saying that happens here, youtube is full of videos of drivers in front responsible for an accident.

[bosyber]

Going for a gap on the inside of that hairpin tight corner was attempting suicide. Only inexperienced go there. Max has done that in his early years and learnt it well. Piastri should have known, but he went anyway. He can keep blaming Sainz all day long, but it's just common sense. Hopefully it will make him avoid that in future.

Exactly this.I wanted to post the same...
You could nicely see how far someone like Hamilton or Verstappen stays away from this suicide apex once they are not in the lead. On the other hand it is clear that Sainz is there.
I do not know what Piastri was trying there. With his rear wing he was always a sitting duck on the straight like Norris. So compromising T1 by taking a much too narrow approach was even more stupid. If there would have been any plan for this corner it should have been not to outbreak yourself on the inside, but rather be on the outside to get a better exit and hope for slipstream.

But before Sainz dived in there and locked up, there was space for Piastri to hang on, get to the apex a bit behind and to the inside of Hamilton, and see about getting by then. Sure maybe he should have counted on Sainz more, but equally, Sainz just didn't take Piastri into account while knowing he was there and would have to break really hard and then risk the rest of the field getting into his gearbox if he wanted to get out of that now closing gap. IMO if anyone, Sainz deserved the penalty as he should have known it wasn't possibly going to work, even if he hadn't locked up, at best he'd shove Hamilton out of making a good exit, but not more. Anyway, let's call it a typical Spa 1st corner incident.

[taperoo2k]

Do you even look at the right moment ?

Lewis slides into Perez, he was not placing his car, it was overspeed in the corner.

It was a racing incident, if Perez's tyres had not gone off Lewis wouldn't have been in a
position to overtake Perez. If that were Max in Lewis's position you'd not be saying a word about it other than
probably blaming Perez for it if Max were given a penalty.

I'm an old school F1 fan, I absolutely despise the tribalism that's entered the sport.
This isn't football, Formula One remains an incredibly dangerous sport and the least we
can do is be respectful to all of the drivers. I hope none of the newer fans of F1 ever have
to experience a weekend like the one where Ratzenberger and Senna died.

Mate you are kidding yourself, Perez had no where to go. Lewis went outside and hit him. Simple as that, Perez race destroyed, Lewis only 5 sec.

Perez wrecked his tyres, if he'd kept them alive then Lewis would have likely never seen the gap. Swap positions and Perez would have done the same thing. It was a racing incident nothing more.
As Senna said if your not going for the gap then you are no longer racing.