2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

[ValeVida46]

Yes. Remove Max from the equation and the picture would have been different. Which shows it does require a top tier driver to deliver the potential, just a good car isn't enough. Not saying its a bad car, nor that it isn't the best cad, but for it to be ultra-epic, it should still consistently win in the hands of a mediocre or bad driver - and there is no evidence of that.

I'm afraid your driver worship is beyond the pale.
This is probably the best car the sport has ever seen. To the point even a turgid Perez is 2nd in the championship by 50 points despite having a horrific season.

Perez has put some midfield cars on podium in his career, 2012 comes to mind so he is no slouch on sunday.

In 2012....

[AR3-GP]

It's was pretty much a racing incident. Wasn't foolish or malicious. Remember Leclerc did this in the same corner and went unpenalized a few years ago.

Leclerc did it again today vs Perez. and it should have been penalized then, and now.


Some people say Ferrari drivers always get penalties ( ). Ferrari drivers had teflon shields today.

Haha, (in lurch voice) you rang?

you know me so well!

[Silent Storm]

I'm afraid your driver worship is beyond the pale.
This is probably the best car the sport has ever seen. To the point even a turgid Perez is 2nd in the championship by 50 points despite having a horrific season.

Perez has put some midfield cars on podium in his career, 2012 comes to mind so he is no slouch on sunday.

In 2012....

If you have google you can check after 2012 too, but as a newcomer he was not slow.

[Cs98]

If the car was really as ultra-epic as you claim, we would see consistent 1-2 finishes. We don't.

If any of the top tier drivers were there, we would be seeing those 1-2’s.

Bottas would be getting 2nd in that car very consistently.

Like he did in the W11?

[ValeVida46]

This is probably the best car the sport has ever seen.

In terms of percentage that is probably untrue. Surely the wealthy Government-backed German manufacturer Grand Prix teams of the 1930's had a far greater advantage as a percentage of laptime?

They'vve won 100% of the season after 14 races. That's unprecedented.

[DChemTech]

10 wins in a row for max, 14 race wins in row this season, all races so far won by 1 team, and you are going to claim the car isn't ultra epic? Wow.

Yes. Remove Max from the equation and the picture would have been different. Which shows it does require a top tier driver to deliver the potential, just a good car isn't enough. Not saying its a bad car, nor that it isn't the best cad, but for it to be ultra-epic, it should still consistently win in the hands of a mediocre or bad driver - and there is no evidence of that.

Never realized Decesaris won with the Mp4/4.

can't argue without ridiculing?

The point is quite clear. If it was 'just the car', we'd see the drivers closer together (and not one winning always), and more 1-2 performances. The Red bull is a good car and certainly the best of the season. But to display the dominance that has been displayed is not due to to the car alone as some try to argue - is is due to consistent, exceptional performance by the driver. That has nothing to do with driver worship as some try to claim.

[JordanMugen]

This is probably the best car the sport has ever seen.

In terms of percentage that is probably untrue. Surely the wealthy Government-backed German manufacturer Grand Prix teams of the 1930's had a far greater advantage as a percentage of laptime?

They'vve won 100% of the season after 14 races. That's unprecedented.

In that case, that is some fine praise for this superb racing machine!

[Just_a_fan]

The onboards of the Hamilton/Piastri showed that the former didn't "move over" as there was no steering towards Piastri. Also, there was some space on the outside of Piastri. But easy to say these things from the comfort of our sofas rather than being strapped in to the cockpit of a car with limited visibility, etc..

Hamilton admitted it was totally his fault - far too few drivers ever do that - and he has apologised to Piastri personally too.

[JordanMugen]

The point is quite clear. If it was 'just the car', we'd see the drivers closer together (and not one winning always), and more 1-2 performances. The Red bull is a good car and certainly the best of the season. But to display the dominance that has been displayed is not due to to the car alone as some try to argue - is is due to consistent, exceptional performance by the driver. That has nothing to do with driver worship as some try to claim.

Trying to split Tier One drivers is a fool's errand IMO.

When they are paired in the same car, championships are often alternated and decided by chance. Recall that Senna and Prost won 1 WDC each as teammates.

So while Verstappen is an exceptional driver, to assume Verstappen is doing things that Russell, Hamilton, Leclerc or Alonso could not do in the car is -- I would say -- unreasonable. Perhaps they could not do as consistently as Verstappen, but over a season with some bad luck for Verstappen, it is non implausible that they could take the WDC title were they the second Red Bull driver IMO.

Verstappen had the faith that Red Bull would (eventually, after a very long time!) deliver him a winning car and Red Bull have faith that Verstappen will drive this car exceptionally well and get the job done for them. That's all that matters.

[Red Bull Racing are not quite as 100% confident/faithful in Mr. Sergio Perez! ]

[Spoutnik]

W11 was a diva on some tracks. And by the end of the year Bottas couldn't get P2.
This RB19 is honestly good at every track. The only track where they were less faster than usually was Canada (+10sec with a bird on the the brake duct and a SC mid race).
This car would probably do the same things in the hand of Fernando, Lewis, Michael or even peak Kimi imo

[ringo]

If the car was really as ultra-epic as you claim, we would see consistent 1-2 finishes. We don't. What we do see is a driver that has systematically and strongly outperformed his teammates over several years, and managed to extract all performance from cars weekend after weekend while others could not do so with the same car. That is an exceptional performance regardless of your stance on the person's character.

10 wins in a row for max, 14 race wins in row this season, all races so far won by 1 team, and you are going to claim the car isn't ultra epic? Wow.

Yes. Remove Max from the equation and the picture would have been different. Which shows it does require a top tier driver to deliver the potential, just a good car isn't enough. Not saying its a bad car, nor that it isn't the best cad, but for it to be ultra-epic, it should still consistently win in the hands of a mediocre or bad driver - and there is no evidence of that.

It is not that linear. Lets say Perez would be the golden boy in the team. They would focus on him and it's likely he would be winning.
Perez inconsistency is mainly due to him trying to be a different type of driver. If he was the fastest guy in redbull and the car and team builr around his style. He would be winning all races. He wont be on pole all the time. But consistently in the first 2 rows and almost guaranteed to win.

[Spoutnik]

The standard of driving is awful really. Too much "terrorism" defense from Russell, Sainz etc...

[Cs98]

The onboards of the Hamilton/Piastri showed that the former didn't "move over" as there was no steering towards Piastri. Also, there was some space on the outside of Piastri. But easy to say these things from the comfort of our sofas rather than being strapped in to the cockpit of a car with limited visibility, etc..

Hamilton admitted it was totally his fault - far too few drivers ever do that - and he has apologised to Piastri personally too.

He's side by side going into the braking zone and aims the nose of his car towards the outside of the circuit. There was no need for steering inputs during braking, the fault was made when he aimed the car towards the outside when he knew he had a car next to him.

[JordanMugen]

It is not that linear. Lets say Perez would be the golden boy in the team. They would focus on him and it's likely he would be winning.
Perez inconsistency is mainly due to him trying to be a different type of driver. If he was the fastest guy in redbull and the car and team builr around his style. He would be winning all races. He wont be on pole all the time. But consistently in the first 2 rows and almost guaranteed to win.

Red Bull would need a really poor second driver for Perez to win every race.

Let's say Red Bull took the unretired Hulkenberg as the second driver alongside Perez. I suspect that even now Hulkenberg is still much faster than Perez in qualifying. Would Perez come from behind to overtake Hulkenberg in every race?

It's the age old question: does Hulkenberg go backwards from a Top 10 qualifying position because of Hulkenberg or because of HAAS?

According to Frank Dernie, Toyota had this problem when they had Trulli (only good at qualifying) and Kobayashi (only good at racing).

It's REALLY not ideal to have one driver who is only good at racing and one drive who is only good at qualifying.

Surely, if they did not have Verstappen, Red Bull would seek out a driver who is good at both qualifying and racing, like say Fernando Alonso who was off-contract for the 2023 season?

[dialtone]

Yes. Remove Max from the equation and the picture would have been different. Which shows it does require a top tier driver to deliver the potential, just a good car isn't enough. Not saying its a bad car, nor that it isn't the best cad, but for it to be ultra-epic, it should still consistently win in the hands of a mediocre or bad driver - and there is no evidence of that.

Never realized Decesaris won with the Mp4/4.

can't argue without ridiculing?

The point is quite clear. If it was 'just the car', we'd see the drivers closer together (and not one winning always), and more 1-2 performances. The Red bull is a good car and certainly the best of the season. But to display the dominance that has been displayed is not due to to the car alone as some try to argue - is is due to consistent, exceptional performance by the driver. That has nothing to do with driver worship as some try to claim.

They have 6 1-2 finishes and 2 1-3 out of 14 races. Max never finished worse than 2nd even when starting 15th. Car won every single race so far. No other car ever did this. W11 season was on 17 races, RB19 has already killed that season.

No dominant car has ever had anything but a world class driver behind the wheel, be it Hamilton or Schumacher or Senna, Prost, Mansell and what have you. Your argument is pretty poor. The W11 season without Ham was gonna be mediocre, so that means the W11 is a bad car right? Russell was 9th with it after all.