2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

Daniel couldn’t trust The McLaren cars with their weak front end and inconsistent handling traits, end of story.

McLaren themselves said Daniel was a joy to work with and it was clear he and Lando worked well together.

Frankly, I think most ppl were impressed with how he handled a bad situation with grace and dignity.

Daniel being a pleasant person to work with has nothing to do with my point. He's a nice guy. The issue is not his relationship with the teams. The issue is one that he creates for himself. He is either beating his teammate and in a very good state of mind, or losing and spiraling into depression. That's just how he is.

He couldn’t get to grips with the car - like most top drivers, if he can’t trust it, he can’t get the most out of it.

It speaks volumes to how bad the McLaren was when Lando says "at its most problematic this meant having to “learn every single corner how to drive the car in a different way”.

That is again not my point. Whether it is the car that is the problem, or his teammate that is the problem, he is an extremely sensitive individual when he is in a position where he is losing. He is not someone who is just happy to exist, like a Lance Stroll. He is either happy as a clam and defeating his teammate, or losing and having an existential crisis. This happened at RB and Mclaren already. Daniel needs to be the best driver in whichever team he is driving for.

Sainz or Hulkenberg would arguably be a better pick for RB because they are mentally quite strong imo. Sainz is absolutely defiant, you beat him 100 times and he still thinks he'll beat you the next time. Hulkenberg just doesn't care.

[djos]

Daniel being a pleasant person to work with has nothing to do with my point. He's a nice guy. The issue is not his relationship with the teams. The issue is one that he creates for himself. He is either beating his teammate and in a very good state of mind, or losing and spiraling into depression. That's just how he is.

He couldn’t get to grips with the car - like most top drivers, if he can’t trust it, he can’t get the most out of it.

It speaks volumes to how bad the McLaren was when Lando says "at its most problematic this meant having to “learn every single corner how to drive the car in a different way”.

That is again not my point. Whether it is the car that is the problem, or his teammate that is the problem, he is an extremely sensitive individual when he is in a position where he is losing. He is not someone who is just happy to exist, like a Lance Stroll.

I disagree with your “extremely sensitive” opinion.

[AR3-GP]

He couldn’t get to grips with the car - like most top drivers, if he can’t trust it, he can’t get the most out of it.

It speaks volumes to how bad the McLaren was when Lando says "at its most problematic this meant having to “learn every single corner how to drive the car in a different way”.

That is again not my point. Whether it is the car that is the problem, or his teammate that is the problem, he is an extremely sensitive individual when he is in a position where he is losing. He is not someone who is just happy to exist, like a Lance Stroll.

I disagree with your “extremely sensitive” opinion.

I don't know why. This is a guy who said he left RB because he "didn't feel loved". That says it all....

Someone like a Hulkenberg or a Sainz isn't there to "feel loved" and that is why they would be much more resilient in the 2nd RB seat.

I think that pace wise, Daniel would be good for the 2nd RB seat, but Daniel is a complex character and is sensitive to a lot of external factors and his ability to perform like we believe he should in that second seat, depends on 3x WDC Verstappen not being in other seat.

[djos]

I don’t recall him saying that, he said he needed a fresh challenge as he’d been with RedBull for about a decade at that point.

[AR3-GP]

I don’t recall him saying that, he said he needed a fresh challenge as he’d been with RedBull for about a decade at that point.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/danie ... 1/5280731/

For Daniel it's really all about being the center of attention. This is obvious is so many ways....down to his personality outside of the cockpit, and his ability to perform inside the cockpit.

He was no longer the center of attention when Verstappen arrived and after 3 seasons, he couldn't stand that feeling. It wasn't about the car, or being afraid of Honda, or anything else that he said. It was just that.

This is why I say again that drivers like Sainz and Hulkenberg are also good picks. They require much less maintenance. They don't need to think that they are chosen one or loved or the center of attention to perform. This is unlike Daniel, who imo cannot watch a teammate take the limelight without having an existential crisis...

[organic]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/carlos-gh ... enault-era

Speaking on the latest episode of F1's Beyond The Grid podcast, Newey outlined exactly how Red Bull came to fall out with its engine supplier. Despite winning four driver's and four constructor's championships in a row, the dawn of the turbo-hybrid era had proven difficult for the successful partnership. Red Bull laid much of the blame at Renault's door, with team principal Christian Horner publically blasting the engine as "quite undrivable" in the midst of the troubled 2014 season.

“We were in this position where Renault hadn’t produced a competitive engine in the turbo hybrid era,” said Newey in the F1 Podcast. “You know, that happens first year. Okay, it's new rules, we all make mistakes.” Crisis talks between the team and Renault were arranged to try and get some action on the engine issues. “We went to see Carlos Ghosn, the boss of Renault at Champs-Élysées, Christian, Helmut and myself, to try to put pressure on him to up the budget and basically ask if he can free more resources so the engine division can accelerate their program... they needed more people and more money,” Newey added.

The response from the Renault boss couldn't have been more negative. “Ghosn’s reply was ‘I have no interest in Formula 1. I am only in it because my marketing people say I should be,’" noted Newey, adding "That was such a depressing place to be." It was a time when Red Bull had no other viable options, with Mercedes and Ferrari both unlikely to supply a competitive power unit. "We were stuck with Renault for some huge amount of time in the future... and we couldn’t be properly competitive. It was such a dark tunnel.”

[Sofa King]

It’s a little ironic that Red Bull ended up with Honda since Ghosn escaped house arrest in Japan hidden in a musical equipment box

https://www.thedrive.com/news/carlos-gh ... enault-era

Speaking on the latest episode of F1's Beyond The Grid podcast, Newey outlined exactly how Red Bull came to fall out with its engine supplier. Despite winning four driver's and four constructor's championships in a row, the dawn of the turbo-hybrid era had proven difficult for the successful partnership. Red Bull laid much of the blame at Renault's door, with team principal Christian Horner publically blasting the engine as "quite undrivable" in the midst of the troubled 2014 season.

“We were in this position where Renault hadn’t produced a competitive engine in the turbo hybrid era,” said Newey in the F1 Podcast. “You know, that happens first year. Okay, it's new rules, we all make mistakes.” Crisis talks between the team and Renault were arranged to try and get some action on the engine issues. “We went to see Carlos Ghosn, the boss of Renault at Champs-Élysées, Christian, Helmut and myself, to try to put pressure on him to up the budget and basically ask if he can free more resources so the engine division can accelerate their program... they needed more people and more money,” Newey added.

The response from the Renault boss couldn't have been more negative. “Ghosn’s reply was ‘I have no interest in Formula 1. I am only in it because my marketing people say I should be,’" noted Newey, adding "That was such a depressing place to be." It was a time when Red Bull had no other viable options, with Mercedes and Ferrari both unlikely to supply a competitive power unit. "We were stuck with Renault for some huge amount of time in the future... and we couldn’t be properly competitive. It was such a dark tunnel.”

[Sieper]

I think the problem for us is the upselling of Bottas. And more or less the downselling of every teammate that Max had. A certain driver also hinted that we should look at it that way. Most of them collapsed when competing with Max, some spectacularly, but they are also all still in F1 and doing good.

So I think we want to offer some perspective.

Everyone knows Perez is, as you say, a journeyman but he is certainly not much worse than f.e, a Bottas and Max is totally crushing him.

It is also hard as Max wants, nay, needs to win all the time. He is always on it. Will never let you save face. And perhaps especially so if you think you are better than you actually are, but I don’t really think Max needs that kind of motivation. He is already hungry like you almost can’t believe.

Why do you feel the need to talk down Bottas other than to cast shade on Lewis? I'm not discussing Perez to talk-down Max. I, for one, have stated on several posts today that Max is up there with the greats. Whether Perez is good or not doesn't change that. I think Max would have had to work harder with a better team mate, but I think he'd still be where he is at the top of the table (a WDC in the other car would have made for a more interesting set of races at the front, for sure, and maybe a different set of results but we'll never know so it's a moot point).

Perez has wasted his opportunity in what is one of the best cars in F1 history. Does anyone disagree with that? Perez should have been taking seconds galore or at the least podiums galore this year but he hasn't.

Bottas wasn't a title winner. Was never going to be. But he was consistently a better points and podium finisher in a good car than Perez is.
2017, 18, and 2019, Bottas had one finish outside of the points (other than DNFs). 37 podium finishes.
2021, 22, 2023 Perez has had 6 finishes outside of the points (other than DNFs) and we haven't finished the season yet. 24 podium finishes (6 races to go so he can get 30 if he does really well).

And why focus on Bottas? What about Rosberg? Also "upsold"? But that risks derailing to a driver ying-yang that isn't relevant to the RBR team (a discussion about Perez is relevant).

As I said, this isn't about casting Max as being oversold. It's about Perez and his wasting of the best opportunity of his career.

I disagree with almost everything you said. You start f.e. With inverting my point, and also you say things I haven’t said (Rosberg) and make it as if I did which is also not a nice way to discuss. But I agree to let’s not go into driver ying yang. The reason I made my post was very clear, there are a lot of people downselling Perez in this very thread and it does need to be put in perspective. We are obliged to do so in the RBR thread.

It happened to every driver they put next to Max, a lot of people start putting pressure that they need to go as they are no good. “Waste of a seat” almost always comes up. Then they go, get another seat, and are doing fine. They can’t all actually be that bad and have all proven not to be.

[Sieper]

I think the problem for us is the upselling of Bottas. And more or less the downselling of every teammate that Max had. A certain driver also hinted that we should look at it that way. Most of them collapsed when competing with Max, some spectacularly, but they are also all still in F1 and doing good.

You've either got what it takes to compete with Max or you realise your role is as a number 2 to bring in the points and to win when Max is not able to.

So I think we want to offer some perspective.

Everyone knows Perez is, as you say, a journeyman but he is certainly not much worse than f.e, a Bottas and Max is totally crushing him.

Perez is a stop gap measure for Red Bull, given they chewed through a lot of drivers over the past decade.
My gut feeling is that Daniel will get the second seat at Red Bull in 2025 (assuming he performs at AT), maybe he'll get it in 2024 if Perez continues to be terrible with Red Bull facing stiffer competition from say McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes.

It is also hard as Max wants, nay, needs to win all the time. He is always on it. Will never let you save face. And perhaps especially so if you think you are better than you actually are, but I don’t really think Max needs that kind of motivation. He is already hungry like you almost can’t believe.

You can say the same things about Lewis and Alonso. Max doesn't need to be hyped up.

I wasn’t hyping up Max. I do feel that Lewis sometimes offers opportunity for others to save face, let them have a win. Either on purpose, or as he had a day where the performance wasn’t totally there (not sure, maybe a combination). Lewis wouldn’t make a pitstop to get the fastest lap in a year where he doesn’t need the extra point. Max pressures his team into it. And I am not saying that is a good thing, but that need to win it all is very apparent.

[Wouter]

Perez is probably button level when everything is going well, except Button could drive in the rain, Perez cannot.

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Nah, Perez isn't on Button's level. If you'd put Perez in the BGP 001 he'd have come second to Rubens.

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Did everyone forget that Perez is quite a competent driver that showed good things in both a Sauber and over several years of Force India? He is not as bad as everyone suddenly seems to think.
Just doesn't seem as capable at driving a car that's designed for Max' driving style. Which isn't a shame - the same applied to Albon and Gasly, who are both showing competence in other cars.

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In the Formula 1 Nations podcast, Newey also talks about the drivers he wants. He almost literally says that he wants drivers
who can adapt to the driving behavior of a car he designs. Not the other way around. He doesn't make a car specifically for a driver. He finds feedback from a driver very important and should not be underestimated. The driver must also be able to give that.

Max is fortunate that Newey designs cars that suit his driving style. Perez doesn't handle a pointed front very well and has a hard time adapting to it.

[Just_a_fan]

Lewis wouldn’t make a pitstop to get the fastest lap in a year where he doesn’t need the extra point. Max pressures his team into it. And I am not saying that is a good thing, but that need to win it all is very apparent.

It's a simple risk/reward thing. As you get older you realise that the rewards don't always outweigh the risks - and every pit stop is a risk. If you can win the title with fewer risks being taken then that is the "grown up" way to do things and, indeed, the way to do things when you're under a bit of external pressure (Max isn't under external pressure this year at least).

That's not a slight at Max - he's the same age now as Lewis was in 2009 which is quite an eye opener and a reminder of how young Max was when he entered F1.

So, I'd expect that Max will lose some of that "I must get every FL, every point" mentality as time goes on. It's natural progression.

[Sieper]

Yes, there certainly still is opportunity for that. He still is only 25. We all change as we get older, have seen more.

[SirBastianVettel]

Max is fortunate that Newey designs cars that suit his driving style. Perez doesn't handle a pointed front very well and has a hard time adapting to it.

Can we actually say this? We can safely say that Max can handle Newey designed cars very well, but I don't think we can say yet that this is his natural driving style. For all we know he adapts very well and would be equally fast in cars that have very different handling characteristics.

[Wouter]

Max is fortunate that Newey designs cars that suit his driving style. Perez doesn't handle a pointed front very well and has a hard time adapting to it.

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Can we actually say this? We can safely say that Max can handle Newey designed cars very well, but I don't think we can say yet that this is his natural driving style. For all we know he adapts very well and would be equally fast in cars that have very different handling characteristics.

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Yes, it is Max his natural driving style, always was. Newey always designs cars with a pointy front because they are the fastest and Max prefers to drive with a pointy front because they are the fastest. But you have to be able to do that and he has always been able to do that. Max can quickly adapt to a firm rear, but it is not that fast to drive so he doesn't like that.

[Cassius]

Lewis wouldn’t make a pitstop to get the fastest lap in a year where he doesn’t need the extra point. Max pressures his team into it. And I am not saying that is a good thing, but that need to win it all is very apparent.

It's a simple risk/reward thing. As you get older you realise that the rewards don't always outweigh the risks - and every pit stop is a risk. If you can win the title with fewer risks being taken then that is the "grown up" way to do things and, indeed, the way to do things when you're under a bit of external pressure (Max isn't under external pressure this year at least).

That's not a slight at Max - he's the same age now as Lewis was in 2009 which is quite an eye opener and a reminder of how young Max was when he entered F1.

So, I'd expect that Max will lose some of that "I must get every FL, every point" mentality as time goes on. It's natural progression.

If it would have been a fight still Max and the team would not have taken the risk. I haven't seen Max take any unneccesary risks so this whole discussion is a bit pointless.