Which team is most likely to catch redbull before 2026 discussion

[ThijsMuis]

Alpha Tauri (or whatever they will be called next year); moving the team (at least the technical part of it) to the UK could, potentially, lift them up the grid appreciably.

Very possible if Crofty is right.



https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1b ... ext-season

[organic]

Alpha Tauri (or whatever they will be called next year); moving the team (at least the technical part of it) to the UK could, potentially, lift them up the grid appreciably.

Very possible if Crofty is right.



https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1b ... ext-season

This would be in no way legal. Crofty talking nonsense as per

[chrisc90]

What bits can a customer team use from the ‘main’ team

[ThijsMuis]

This would be in no way legal. Crofty talking nonsense as per

Who knows. Will be interesting to see next year.

[organic]

This would be in no way legal. Crofty talking nonsense as per

Who knows. Will be interesting to see next year.

They'll absolutely take everything they can from RB but they can't just run the rb19. The "who knows" is not applicable here. It's literally illegal. Lots of rules exist to prevent situation of a pink Merc repeat. Would also be a lot worse if RB engaged in that sort of thing given it would just place a ton of scrutiny on them owning two teams for little gain to RB itself

Crofty is just wildly incorrect which is not unusual

What bits can a customer team use from the ‘main’ team

The full list is in appendix 5 of the technical regs

Listed parts are those that are exclusively used by the team. This consists of things like aerodynamic surface components, chassis, cooling

Transferable parts are those that can be used by a customer team such as (generally speaking) suspension and gearbox components

And the transferable parts which can be used by other teams.

[ThijsMuis]

They'll absolutely take everything they can from RB but they can't just run the rb19. The "who knows" is not applicable here. It's literally illegal.
The full list is in appendix 5 of the technical regs

It might fall down to what the FIA interpret the RB19 to be? I wouldn't expect an identikit RB19 from them.
The Race is saying they will be running the RB19 front suspension next year. And the same windtunnel.
Could just be able to say it was convergence.
Appendix 5 is Power units if i read the right docs.

[organic]

They'll absolutely take everything they can from RB but they can't just run the rb19. The "who knows" is not applicable here. It's literally illegal.
The full list is in appendix 5 of the technical regs

It might fall down to what the FIA interpret the RB19 to be? I wouldn't expect an identikit RB19 from them.
The Race is saying they will be running the RB19 front suspension next year. And the same windtunnel.
Could just be able to say it was convergence.
Appendix 5 is Power units if i read the right docs.

No - appendix is 5 is about component classification. Starts Pg 172.

APPENDIX 5: COMPONENTS’ CLASSIFICATION AND PERIMETER

If it's designated as LTC then it's listed ie specific to the team that has designed it. Alpha tauri wouldn't be able to procure and run the rb19 chassis, aerodynamic surfaces, front impact structure as they are Listed Components (LTC). This is not an exhaustive list - just some examples.

But they can take the front suspension, rear impact structure and various gearbox components as they are Transferable Components (TRCs). Again, non-exhaustive.

I'm not going to say it again.. it's very well defined what you are and aren't allowed to do. It's written into the regs quite rigourously and said rules have been reinforced recently after the pink Merc was produced using some 3d scanning. You have to be able to show evidence of your designs being conceived and developed. You can't jump from A to E without showing FIA evidence that you went A->B -> C -> D... with your design trajectory

[ThijsMuis]

No - appendix is 5 is about component classification. Starts Pg 172.

APPENDIX 5: COMPONENTS’ CLASSIFICATION AND PERIMETER

If it's designated as LTC then it's listed ie specific to the team that has designed it. Alpha tauri wouldn't be able to procure and run the rb19 chassis, aerodynamic surfaces, front impact structure as they are Listed Components (LTC). This is not an exhaustive list - just some examples.

But they can take the front suspension, rear impact structure and various gearbox components as they are Transferable Components (TRCs). Again, non-exhaustive.

I'm not going to say it again.. it's very well defined what you are and aren't allowed to do. It's written into the regs quite rigourously and said rules have been reinforced recently after the pink Merc was produced using some 3d scanning. You have to be able to show evidence of your designs being conceived and developed. You can't jump from A to E without showing FIA evidence that you went A->B -> C -> D... with your design trajectory

I don't understand, what is wrong with something that has front and rear RB19 suspensions and gearbox?
That might also closely resemble an RB19 as other teams have done with sidepods?
It might also have easy joining points from the RB19 tub that might look closely like RB19.
Is there rules against resembling? You don't have to say nothing more here friend I think maybe my idea wasn't clear, so no upset meant.

[chrisc90]

They are trying to race a Frankenstein car - the car is basically the W13 with different bodywork aft of the SIP wing.

I would expect their new "clean paper" design will be much better because they have 2 years of watching what works to fall back on. The W15 may not be quicker than the RB20, but I bet a single £5 note to your preferred charity that it will be closer to the RB20 than the W14 is to the RB19.

I admire your optimism there.

Closer in what respect? Quali time? Race time? Gap over a season time?

Why? Is no one other than RB able to make a quick car now?

As for closer, I would expect them to be closer in qualifying and race pace. No idea what "gap over a season time" is.

I actually looked back and compared the times from last year and this year. I know it is VERY hard to draw true conclusions since incidents happen in the race, safety cars, track layout, retirements etc etc, but I compiled all the race results between the two teams. I think I may go back and do total race time and compare between seasons (and teams) but still we/I end up with the problem above.

What we do know as fact though - there is a LOT of race time to catch up between ANY of the teams to Red Bull (or Max specifically), and given the amount of tyre saving, lift and coast or just plain sand bagging RB/MV is doing its a very blurred image of what the true pace of the car is in race trim. Id dare say teams would need to bring 1/2 to 3/4 of a second to start to give RB/MV trouble to the point where they begin to push the car in race trim.

[Sieper]

What bits can a customer team use from the ‘main’ team

All. Just paint them pink.

[Rushu]

Haas also take everything they can from Ferrari, and they're not even close.

[Z-one]

MCL may have a better performance than aston in 1st half of 2024，because the completion of car is higher than ferrari and merc. In 2023, the example of Aston implicit the advantage of higher completion in the start of season. the example of Aston also told us that just following the concept of Red Bull can make your car faster than the other team, except RedBull itself. As the season progresses, their advantage over others will gradually diminish，especially for Ferrari and Merc that have a huge advantage in certain aspects . They're still different compared to Aston：Technology, talent pool much higher than Aston，this process may be slower，but cannot be avoided.

how to catch RB? we have to wait some regulation adjustment to cut the advantage of RB, like the thing happened in 2021

[PikeStance]

It takes more than car parts to improve. You also have to have people with technical ability to implement a design concept. If you think simply using a copied design concept then you know less than me. Plus ATs driver lineup does not compare to RBR, Mercedes, McL or Ferrari, so I doubt they would be able to compete.

It comes down to narrowing of the race pace. I would also say that the other drivers would also have to improve their performances. Max would need to decline or not perform so well.

I feel that Ferrari and McLaren se to be the most likely based on their improvements over 2023. Mercedes and AM seem lost at the moment.

That is how I see it anyway

[CHT]

I want to hear everyone’s thoughts on who you think is mostly to catch/surpass redbull before 2026 if at all.

Between Merc, McLaren, and Ferrari, I think both McLaren and Ferrari have the potential. I think Frederic Vasseur and Zac Brown are putting together a very good team. And having switched to an RBR-like design early, they will have some advantage over Merc.

To surpass RBR in 2025 is possible if teams are willing to sacrifice their 2026 regulation development to pursue 2025, while hoping that RBR will switch to 2026 early. But I am not hopeful

[chrisc90]

A sky podcast on whether Mercedes can catch Red Bull for next season.



I havent listened to it yet but it might have some interesting topics related to this thread.