2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Cocles]

Toto claims that the team has identified the root cause if the issue now.

Lewis stated this as well in one of his interviews. He said that Suzuka was the kind of test track he needed, and it was now really obvious what had to be done to the car to improve it. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yup many high speed turns here, and there was a large temperature swing to get good data. Lewis was second fastest in sector 1 in Q3 so it seems they have found something. Tyre wear was obviously sacrificed to put the car in a position to do that though. I'm expecting big changes.. big but relatively cheap.

[AR3-GP]

If they don't get on top of this, the summer will not be fun.

[dialtone]

If they don't get on top of this, the summer will not be fun.

I find it hard to believe. 3C is nothing, air density doesn’t really change. Tire window maybe slightly but not to the extent that you’d turn a 1 stopper attempt into a 2 stopper. If the swing was 10C I would get it, but yesterday was a hot track day and 3C was minimal difference compared to how cold the track was saturday or friday.

This smells as correlation and not causation and the correlation is with everyone else actually pushing their cars rather than saving engines on saturdays.

Saturday quali was cold as well and they qualified behind.

[ringo]

It's track temperature. So not much to do with the air density.
More related to tyres and tyre behavior maybe?

But it could be that Mercedes are chasing the wrong thing and the car is just poor overall.

[venkyhere]

In 8 months the final GP will be over and a day or two later there will be a post-season test and a certain someone will drive the red car. Hang in there

I will be looking out if any of our usual Mercedes team thread "visitors" come over to the Ferrari thread too! Lol.

I will be in the Mercedes thread still though. It's a team I have followed closely since they ran thier "ductless" F-duct.

I think a lot of people are/ or have given up on Mercedes now. Reading here and other F1 forums there is a lot of talk of lost faith in the team. Shame really. Its a very slippery slope Mercedes have to climb now and without a understanding of where/what to look for in the data they are struggling.

Almost like someone needs to give them a hint of you need to be aiming for this sort of downforce in this region in the data and what not.

Forget all that. Such things happen, success is not a 'given' in sport, it needs to be strived for. It's nothing shocking that a once dominant team are reduced to the level of also-rans (still within top 3 or top 5 over the past 3 yrs). It will take a lot of hardwork. Let it.
What irks me most are the 'oh, yes, we have cracked it' media snippets that they feel they need to be giving every weekend over the past 3 yrs, to 'keep motivation up'. Whose motivation ? The fans' ? Sky Sports British crew's ? Just keep all this talk internal. Play it humble in the media. Just say we are working on it. Stop talking like the big bully of old.

This :

Toto claims that the team has identified the root cause if the issue now.

is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Stop talking, start doing. Let the results speak for themselves. Stop behaving like the big bully team. Behave like a midfield team. Accept the reality.

[Dunlay]

Mercedes should have stuck to their concepts instead of trying to please Hamilton. We have seen Wolff and Hamilton bad mouth the car with impunity when Prost was fired for saying less. There is so much talk of how good Ferrari are yet When Merc was finishing 2nd in races last season and before they still moaned about a 5h1t box. They had unique knowledge of their designes and they abandoned that knowledge looking for silver bullets and now are in the wilderness.

I really do think having Hamilton in the team made worse by AD 2021 has given Lewis too much power in deciding and influencing the car design as Lewsi wants instant success been bad for them.

I don’t know what you think Lewis changed in the design process…

He as a driver wanted a seat further back which clearly gave them better feeling of the back end! Lewis doesn’t design floors though! And all of these cars’ performance comes from these floors!

So I don’t know what you’re accusing Lewis for! Drivers drive and give feedback! They don’t design the cars! As simple as that…

Let's be honest, Lewis did push for significant conceptual changes and openly advocated for the team to copy Red Bull. While it's natural for a driver to voice concerns about balance and performance, requesting specific alterations to car components or design is beyond their expertise. This highlights his influence in a less favorable light. While Lewis is undoubtedly a top-tier driver, he isn't an engineer. Both Toto and Lewis bear responsibility for fostering an atmosphere of confusion, though it's worth noting the challenges faced by the team back at the factory in meeting expectations.

[214270]

Mercedes should have stuck to their concepts instead of trying to please Hamilton. We have seen Wolff and Hamilton bad mouth the car with impunity when Prost was fired for saying less. There is so much talk of how good Ferrari are yet When Merc was finishing 2nd in races last season and before they still moaned about a 5h1t box. They had unique knowledge of their designes and they abandoned that knowledge looking for silver bullets and now are in the wilderness.

I really do think having Hamilton in the team made worse by AD 2021 has given Lewis too much power in deciding and influencing the car design as Lewsi wants instant success been bad for them.

I don’t know what you think Lewis changed in the design process…

He as a driver wanted a seat further back which clearly gave them better feeling of the back end! Lewis doesn’t design floors though! And all of these cars’ performance comes from these floors!

So I don’t know what you’re accusing Lewis for! Drivers drive and give feedback! They don’t design the cars! As simple as that…

Let's be honest, Lewis did push for significant conceptual changes and openly advocated for the team to copy Red Bull. While it's natural for a driver to voice concerns about balance and performance, requesting specific alterations to car components or design is beyond their expertise. This highlights his influence in a less favorable light. While Lewis is undoubtedly a top-tier driver, he isn't an engineer. Both Toto and Lewis bear responsibility for fostering an atmosphere of confusion, though it's worth noting the challenges faced by the team back at the factory in meeting expectations.

Why do you assume he got what he wanted, because he’s sitting 10cm further rearwards? Honestly, if you’ve observed HAM for awhile and particularly comments he makes stuck behind fast cars like the Rb/VER (in Texas last yr if I’m remembering correctly) or McL/NOR in Austria for example where he reports (& why I remember so vividly because of the memes) is the “soo much rear” comments. Clearly, this is what he craves & clearly this racecar doesn’t have it; neither any of the previous frankly. Yet he sees his competition driving this very car, with a feelsome & positive rear.

The question is why, given that’s what he’s been pushing hard for. This is the question that worries me because it’s either a) they don’t possess the technical competence to deliver or b) they’re not giving him that racecar on purpose - I suspect because they feel another design/concept path is ult faster. What you’ll find if you investigate is that they actually fail on both fronts - that’s the scary part. They’re struggling a great deal to get their heads around the ruleset, and from snippets from DTS they told him to do 1 when he told them the design path needs changing. Hence, why he’s leaving I suspect - it’s no man’s land right now for him.

EDIT: I’ll add I don’t think this happens if Niki was still here. The drivers voice has been quietened, Niki would’ve brought more balance.

[venkyhere]

Honestly, if you’ve observed HAM for awhile and particularly comments he makes stuck behind fast cars like the Rb/VER (in Texas last yr if I’m remembering correctly) or McL/NOR in Austria for example where he reports (& why I remember so vividly because of the memes) is the “soo much rear” comments. Clearly, this is what he craves & clearly this racecar doesn’t have it; neither any of the previous frankly. Yet he sees his competition driving this very car, with a feelsome & positive rear.

Atleast he's getting to know how other drivers felt for 8 yrs, when behind his car. Feeling jealous of "things other people have and I don't" is basic human nature.

[Dunlay]

I don’t know what you think Lewis changed in the design process…

He as a driver wanted a seat further back which clearly gave them better feeling of the back end! Lewis doesn’t design floors though! And all of these cars’ performance comes from these floors!

So I don’t know what you’re accusing Lewis for! Drivers drive and give feedback! They don’t design the cars! As simple as that…

Let's be honest, Lewis did push for significant conceptual changes and openly advocated for the team to copy Red Bull. While it's natural for a driver to voice concerns about balance and performance, requesting specific alterations to car components or design is beyond their expertise. This highlights his influence in a less favorable light. While Lewis is undoubtedly a top-tier driver, he isn't an engineer. Both Toto and Lewis bear responsibility for fostering an atmosphere of confusion, though it's worth noting the challenges faced by the team back at the factory in meeting expectations.

Why do you assume he got what he wanted, because he’s sitting 10cm further rearwards? Honestly, if you’ve observed HAM for awhile and particularly comments he makes stuck behind fast cars like the Rb/VER (in Texas last yr if I’m remembering correctly) or McL/NOR in Austria for example where he reports (& why I remember so vividly because of the memes) is the “soo much rear” comments. Clearly, this is what he craves & clearly this racecar doesn’t have it; neither any of the previous frankly. Yet he sees his competition driving this very car, with a feelsome & positive rear.

The question is why, given that’s what he’s been pushing hard for. This is the question that worries me because it’s either a) they don’t possess the technical competence to deliver or b) they’re not giving him that racecar on purpose - I suspect because they feel another design/concept path is ult faster. What you’ll find if you investigate is that they actually fail on both fronts - that’s the scary part. They’re struggling a great deal to get their heads around the ruleset, and from snippets from DTS they told him to do 1 when he told them the design path needs changing. Hence, why he’s leaving I suspect - it’s no man’s land right now for him.

EDIT: I’ll add I don’t think this happens if Niki was still here. The drivers voice has been quietened, Niki would’ve brought more balance.

You've essentially echoed my point about the driver's needs. Like any driver, he craves a high-performance car and closely watches other cars ahead, a skill every professional driver on the grid possesses.

His insinuations and forceful calls to 'emulate Red Bull' inadvertently claimed Mike Elliott . It's no secret that the team has struggled with deciphering and adopting Red Bull's concepts. Lewis and Toto's public criticisms have only added to the team's misery.

Niki, a driver with a keen technical understanding beyond his peers, remains one of my favorites. However, I doubt even he could have resolved this situation.

[Hammerfist]

Yes. Haven’t seen any onboard footage

“I think I picked up a bit of damage in the beginning with Charles, came on the outside. I had huuuge understeer for the first stint. I couldn’t turn the car in any of the corners, that’s why I let George by.”

But this doesn’t explain why he was faster than George in the last 2 stints.

A, the damage I've seen on F1TV. It's a small nick on the ramp-like piece that sits on the outside of the endplate, no structural damage to the endplate. Hard to see a big loss of downforce, the wing is basically completely intact.

B, He wasn't faster overall. The extra pace you have when you overcut (which Lewis did both times) has to be weighed against the time you lost when your teammate undercut. Lewis lost a bunch of time in both pit-stop phases and didn't make all of the time back up during the stint (at least until George reached the back of Piastri/Alonso).

He was clearly faster in stint 2 and 3. He lost time on the inlaps of course because George was on fresher tires at the time. But I found out the truth:

"It took us two stints to finally dial more and more wing in to make up for that loss. Last stint, I was better, but it was too late, I had 10 seconds to regain."

https://racinginfinity.com/f1/hamilton- ... t-would-be

So yeah he got damage and lost front downforce but then he adjusted his wing throughout the race and that’s where the extra pace came from. Unfortunate. He probably finishes ahead of Alonso without that.

[Emag]

Unrelated to the current discussion, but this livery gives me MP4-30 vibes.

I only made the connection recently and I feel like performance has something to do with it. Of course MP4-30 was a disaster compared to W15, but still, this car has put them in a ghost town position at the moment.

[Cs98]

But this doesn’t explain why he was faster than George in the last 2 stints.

A, the damage I've seen on F1TV. It's a small nick on the ramp-like piece that sits on the outside of the endplate, no structural damage to the endplate. Hard to see a big loss of downforce, the wing is basically completely intact.

B, He wasn't faster overall. The extra pace you have when you overcut (which Lewis did both times) has to be weighed against the time you lost when your teammate undercut. Lewis lost a bunch of time in both pit-stop phases and didn't make all of the time back up during the stint (at least until George reached the back of Piastri/Alonso).

He was clearly faster in stint 2 and 3. He lost time on the inlaps of course because George was on fresher tires at the time. But I found out the truth:

"It took us two stints to finally dial more and more wing in to make up for that loss. Last stint, I was better, but it was too late, I had 10 seconds to regain."

https://racinginfinity.com/f1/hamilton- ... t-would-be

So yeah he got damage and lost front downforce but then he adjusted his wing throughout the race and that’s where the extra pace came from. Unfortunate. He probably finishes ahead of Alonso without that.

Yes but that's the point isn't it. If you lose 6 seconds from staying out two laps longer and then only make back 5 seconds in the stint you were slower overall, not faster. That's basically what happened, until George hit traffic.

The damage was tiny. We've seen people have great pace missing an entire endplate. Chances are the balance was just off from the start with the higher temps.

[Luscion]

Took a few quotes from aMuS, Merc bringing big upgrades at Imola - https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ren-setup/

The erratic nature of the car is a mystery to everyone. In Jeddah, Mercedes lost half a second in three fast corners. In Suzuka, Hamilton was as fast as Max Verstappen in the S-curves. Upgrades make little sense if you want to escape this maze. The first major development stage will only be ignited in Imola.

Despite the modest result, Mercedes also returns home with a few positive insights. Compared to last year, they have improved by 1.142 seconds on one lap in Suzuka. Red Bull only by 0.680, Ferrari by 0.860, McLaren by 0.969 and Aston Martin by 1.874 seconds.

The Japanese GP was a weekend of experiments for Mercedes. One thing at least seems to have worked. When finding the car set-up, they want to focus on the mechanical balance first before thinking about the aero balance. This is intended to combat the problem that the tires either enter the working window at different times or drop out again at the slightest temperature fluctuations. The rear was identified as the weak point of the W15. The rear tires overheated too quickly. For this reason, the rear axle was mechanically relieved in Suzuka, while the front axle was subjected to more stress, which meant that the front wing angle could be reduced. With the chosen setup, the lap times remained fairly constant over the weekend. The rise in temperature on Sunday and the strong tailwind in the S-curves did not affect the Silver Arrows as much as usual this time. Nevertheless, a patent solution has not yet been found.

[ringo]

A, the damage I've seen on F1TV. It's a small nick on the ramp-like piece that sits on the outside of the endplate, no structural damage to the endplate. Hard to see a big loss of downforce, the wing is basically completely intact.

B, He wasn't faster overall. The extra pace you have when you overcut (which Lewis did both times) has to be weighed against the time you lost when your teammate undercut. Lewis lost a bunch of time in both pit-stop phases and didn't make all of the time back up during the stint (at least until George reached the back of Piastri/Alonso).

He was clearly faster in stint 2 and 3. He lost time on the inlaps of course because George was on fresher tires at the time. But I found out the truth:

"It took us two stints to finally dial more and more wing in to make up for that loss. Last stint, I was better, but it was too late, I had 10 seconds to regain."

https://racinginfinity.com/f1/hamilton- ... t-would-be

So yeah he got damage and lost front downforce but then he adjusted his wing throughout the race and that’s where the extra pace came from. Unfortunate. He probably finishes ahead of Alonso without that.

Yes but that's the point isn't it. If you lose 6 seconds from staying out two laps longer and then only make back 5 seconds in the stint you were slower overall, not faster. That's basically what happened, until George hit traffic.

The damage was tiny. We've seen people have great pace missing an entire endplate. Chances are the balance was just off from the start with the higher temps.

Okay, so what you are saying is Hamilton is a slow mediocre driver. We get it now.
The season is long. I can make a bet that by half way through the season, Hamilton would be back to his usual run and onlookers will say mercedes moved the car away from Russel and that's what's benefitting Hamilton.
Every year this happens.
The W14 updates claimed the same, and same will happen with W15.
We are just 4 races in. At this point I am just watching the races as the season unfolds. Hamilton is almost 40, he cannot be expected to be firing on 100% for 17 years straight every race.
He did have understeer in the car by the crash, and still was on Russel's pace more or less. It's not really much to argue about or raise an Alarm. It's perfectly fine if Russel outperforms him on some weekends also.
Next year when Russel has Sainz, or Checo or Alonso in the car, it would give some perspective on how good George is.