2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Dunlay]

I think the Japan update could be the one that has made it worse. Slowly but surely, what Alisson said about the RB20's Japan upgrade "it's a downgrade" that many of us (including me) pooh-poohed as 'just fighting talk' might actually turn out to be true.

The bigger problem is, the development would have continued on top of the "downgrade", until it was proven that it was a downgrade. Then they have to stop that development, go back to revisit and see where they went wrong, drop the work that has been done from that point onwards (most likely) and redo the development from the point of problem, by eliminating that problem. It's like you have taken a wrong road and now have to go back to the point where you deviated and then go forward in the right road again from that point. You lose a lot of time and effort and that's what Allison said.

"That makes life hard because the moment you stop trusting your tools, you back track and you start losing time. And time is your biggest friend and losing it is your worst enemy."

[AR3-GP]

I think their solution to low speed performance ended up giving up any gains in curbing performance. But the extent to which the curbing performance has dropped is far more than they expected with the rb20. So the tradeoff that is on the car isn't what was expected.

I think they expected for the curb riding to be similar to the rb19 which wasn't amazing but not terrible

Of course it's a given that they design the car with tradeoffs (ultimately F1 is an engg design/manufacturing contest, with a plethora of opposing constraints).

But I have a feeling that the initial RB20 was giving up on kerbs, only as far as they expected it to, in exchange for low speed gains. Clue : the ugly kerb in the middle of T22-23-24 in Jeddah => the RB20 was fine through there, in fact, it was one of the strongest cars through the braking for 22, rotation, straightening to go over the 23 kerb, then powering out through 24.

I think the Japan update could be the one that has made it worse. Slowly but surely, what Alisson said about the RB20's Japan upgrade "it's a downgrade" that many of us (including me) pooh-poohed as 'just fighting talk' might actually turn out to be true. I wouldn't be surprised if after Austria (where a podium for VER would be a mega achievement) the media around F1 revisits Alisson's statement and builds a narrative "Newey gone, car gone".

The Japan update happened, then China happened. This is confirmation that it worked to some degree.

I think that the big problem is still the RB20 suspension. The excessive and uncorrelated stiffness was exposed in Imola and Monaco. There have been references to the problem in the races over the radio. After Imola, he said he had back pain. In Monaco, he said it was jumping like a kangaroo. No other car was jumping like a kangaroo in Monaco. In Canada, Max said something interesting on lap 48, as if the ride became suddenly much worse during the race, as the fuel load burned off:

Verstappen The ride is very, very bad. It’s like a locked suspension again.
Lambiase Understood.

"like a locked suspension, again"

Verstappen did a "secret" test in Imola with the RB18 last week. Red Bull installed "camera targets" on the front pullrod to look for deflection. They are trying understand why the suspension behavior does not correlate with the simulations. Verstappen talks about a "locked suspension". They don't know why the "ride" of the car does not match simulation.

This points to the RB20 suspension being flawed. There is now an excessive and uncorrelated stiffness that gives the RB20 high tire degradation and makes the car slip over every bump and curb on every circuit. The Silverstone upgrades are aerodynamic. They will not fix this issue.

[Sergej]

Did they stiffen the suspension compared to RB19 ? Why all of a sudden is it so stiff ?

[SirBastianVettel]

Am I the only person who thinks that it’s not a problem that Perez can’t help Max as a rear-gunner? How many points would Max actually have gained this season if Checo performed better? On the other hand if you pair Max with a much stronger team mate he might lose more points by finishing behind every now and then. One race to finish in P2 behind his team mate is a 7 points difference. So how many points can we realistically expect a driver to gain by having a wingman?

[venkyhere]

Am I the only person who thinks that it’s not a problem that Perez can’t help Max as a rear-gunner? How many points would Max actually have gained this season if Checo performed better? On the other hand if you pair Max with a much stronger team mate he might lose more points by finishing behind every now and then. One race to finish in P2 behind his team mate is a 7 points difference. So how many points can we realistically expect a driver to gain by having a wingman?

IMHO, the role of a slightly slower rear gunner : block the 'other' guys behind who have tyre offset/more pace w.r.t lead driver, from running in clean air. Imagine if instead of Russel, it was Perez running P2 in first stint in Barcelona. That's what Bottas used to do when paired with Hamilton. It's not until Verstappen came with a competitive car in late2020-2021, that this 'protection' behind Hamilton disappeared. Like it has disappeared now with Norris in his McLaren.

[SirBastianVettel]

Am I the only person who thinks that it’s not a problem that Perez can’t help Max as a rear-gunner? How many points would Max actually have gained this season if Checo performed better? On the other hand if you pair Max with a much stronger team mate he might lose more points by finishing behind every now and then. One race to finish in P2 behind his team mate is a 7 points difference. So how many points can we realistically expect a driver to gain by having a wingman?

IMHO, the role of a slightly slower rear gunner : block the 'other' guys behind who have tyre offset/more pace w.r.t lead driver, from running in clean air. Imagine if instead of Russel, it was Perez running P2 in first stint in Barcelona. That's what Bottas used to do when paired with Hamilton. It's not until Verstappen came with a competitive car in late2020-2021, that this 'protection' behind Hamilton disappeared. Like it has disappeared now with Norris in his McLaren.

But if Max loses two or three races a year to his teammate that’s 21 points, would he really gain more than 21 points over a season by having his teammate as a buffer between him and the driver in P3 in the other races? I kinda doubt it.

[marcel171281]

In Canada, Max said something interesting on lap 48, as if the ride became suddenly much worse during the race, as the fuel load burned off:

Verstappen The ride is very, very bad. It’s like a locked suspension again.
Lambiase Understood.

"like a locked suspension, again"

The Canada report from Max was as soon as he switched to slicks. Immediately the next lap. What changes when an F1 car goes from rain to slicks tyres? The ride height! Rain tyres have a bigger diameter to prevent aquaplaning. So the problem seems ride height related. And not height in terms of setup, that doesn't change switching tyres.

[Wouter]

Spanish sources say Sainz could be waiting not to sign anything in a hurry because Red Bull is becoming a bit fed up with Perez.

Maybe biased sources, but the fact Sainz has contradicted most rumours who said he would announce by the Spanish GP suggests a new development

.
but I think this comes from biased sources.

[basti313]

Spanish sources say Sainz could be waiting not to sign anything in a hurry because Red Bull is becoming a bit fed up with Perez.

Maybe biased sources, but the fact Sainz has contradicted most rumours who said he would announce by the Spanish GP suggests a new development

.
but I think this comes from biased sources.

The question is how Sainz left RedBull? Was it in good or in bad....?

As every year I would say that RedBull signs Perez to sign the sponsor contracts for next year...and drops him on a performance clause once they can or have a sponsor that replaces them. But maybe I am wrong as last year. The big question is how long these Mexican sponsorships run and if they have a Perez clause.

Does Sainz bring any dowry?

[Wouter]

Spanish sources say Sainz could be waiting not to sign anything in a hurry because Red Bull is becoming a bit fed up with Perez.

Maybe biased sources, but the fact Sainz has contradicted most rumours who said he would announce by the Spanish GP suggests a new development

.
but I think this comes from biased sources.

The question is how Sainz left RedBull? Was it in good or in bad....?

As every year I would say that RedBull signs Perez to sign the sponsor contracts for next year...and drops him on a performance clause once they can or have a sponsor that replaces them. But maybe I am wrong as last year. The big question is how long these Mexican sponsorships run and if they have a Perez clause.

Does Sainz bring any dowry?

.
Not much anymore. Perez brings an enorm amount of money to the team. Most of all the drivers.
Sainz left RB in good circumstances. His dad was annoying though.
.

The Spaniard is sponsored by the beer company Estrella Galicia as a primary sponsor.
Other sponsors include McLaren, PlayStation, and Shiseido Men.

.

Jan 14, 2024

Estrella Galicia, the Spanish beer brand that previously sponsored Ferrari driver Carlos Sainz, has left Ferrari
to rejoin its former partner McLaren Racing, a collaboration that dates back to 2019 and 2020.

[Slitch-nl]

Im guessing the monetary value of Perez comes from increased RB drinks and merch value in south and north america. Perez merchandise sales is more then the general RBF1 and 33 combined.

[KimiRai]

Thanks for the information. Yeah Austria is over

Gravel has been added to the outside of these corners, maybe McLarens advantage wont be that big?

[organic]

Thanks for the information. Yeah Austria is over

Gravel has been added to the outside of these corners, maybe McLarens advantage wont be that big?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQ6f8z7XQAE ... ame=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQ6f-4aXQAI ... ame=medium

It's more about the inside curbs. Thanks for the info & images though!

[diffuser]

Am I the only person who thinks that it’s not a problem that Perez can’t help Max as a rear-gunner? How many points would Max actually have gained this season if Checo performed better? On the other hand if you pair Max with a much stronger team mate he might lose more points by finishing behind every now and then. One race to finish in P2 behind his team mate is a 7 points difference. So how many points can we realistically expect a driver to gain by having a wingman?

IMHO, the role of a slightly slower rear gunner : block the 'other' guys behind who have tyre offset/more pace w.r.t lead driver, from running in clean air. Imagine if instead of Russel, it was Perez running P2 in first stint in Barcelona. That's what Bottas used to do when paired with Hamilton. It's not until Verstappen came with a competitive car in late2020-2021, that this 'protection' behind Hamilton disappeared. Like it has disappeared now with Norris in his McLaren.

But if Max loses two or three races a year to his teammate that’s 21 points, would he really gain more than 21 points over a season by having his teammate as a buffer between him and the driver in P3 in the other races? I kinda doubt it.

If RBR are leading the Constructors and Max is the lead in the drivers championship, then RBR are satisfied with Perez. Those are Perez's barameters.

[ringo]

The locked suspension could imply some binding in the springs and slower response to load reflection in the unsprung mass.
They may have gone too aggressive with their crossbow type upper arm and the other control arms also that contributes to the spring reaction. These members could be binding or buckling which would mean wasted motion and a longer time to return to original lenght before providing length for restoring the wheels.
Sounds like they have a whole project analysing all of fhe arms and springs.
I suspect simpler control arms next update but the ride control or weight may be compromised.