2024 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas Strip, Nov 21 - 23

[chrisc90]

Ain’t nobody going to be trying their luck now the fia and Pirelli have said they’ll look into it. Doing it now it’s in the media would be outright stupidity.

What we need to watch - is if here is any pace or tyre characteristics over a stint that’s changed

[organic]

Ain’t nobody going to be trying their luck now the fia and Pirelli have said they’ll look into it. Doing it now it’s in the media would be outright stupidity.

What we need to watch - is if here is any pace or tyre characteristics over a stint that’s changed

I don't think it will have a big effect for Vegas. But at Abu Dhabi and certainly Qatar if there are very unexpected running orders we can read into it

[FW17]

If you're reading that particular rule strictly as written, then I don't know how the answer is anything but "yes". They specifically say "reduce the amount of moisture" instead of "change the amount of moisture" and make no mention of "increasing the amount of moisture" being forbidden. Now, there may be another regulation or technical directive that deals with that since Red Bull tried this back in 2016 (IIRC from what was said in the thread about this), but going just by this particular rule it would appear to be allowed.

Indeed. Isola, AMuS and formu1a Uno including talk in the paddock has all claimed it's plainly illegal in the regs so must be dealt with elsewhere like you say. It's not legal though, as has been suggested in this thread

It appears the technical directive put in place when Red Bull discovered this loop hole in the rules outlaws this practice, though I don't have the technical directive to quote directly.

Just added the story below which corroborates what the other sources you listed are all saying, "this is not allowed."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... 0stewards.

It is understood that the idea of adding moisture to tyres has been outlawed for many years through a technical directive that the FIA issued previously, so anyone found to have been adding liquid in this manner could risk being reported to the stewards.

Edit: https://formu1a.uno/en/f1-tyre-moisture ... nterlagos/

The TD reads “any modification to the inflation gas composition or moisture content aimed at reducing on-circuit pressures is not permitted. This includes increasing as well as reducing inflation gas moisture content, and the addition of any solid, liquid or gas not permitted for this use in the technical regulations.”

So in the TD they added the term "increasing" to the already existing language that mentions "reducing" moisture content.

Glad to see a quote of the TD.

But with most things in F1, since it is not clear on how this is enforsed, there os going to be speculation. If the TD is from 2016, all the technical regulations since then has not bothered to change the language as in the TD. Does thar make the TD from previous rule cycle, different tyre concept still applicable? Are TDs from 1990s still reffered?

Now coming back to enforcing it, the sensor inside the tyre, a holmolagated fia part, does pressure and temperature along with tyre id for logistics monitoring. How is moisture content in air montited? Do teams not allowed to purge the tyre after use before handing to pitelli?

The wing flexing is plain cheating, how many TDs are there for it? How many tests are there for it? Yet it continues unabated, what makes you think that tyre moisture content is any different? Did the race director say in Brazil that moisture indicator stickers will be added on rim and tyre inside to alivate concern (like he put seals on red bull cockpit to make sure the bib is not adjusted) or did he just stick his thumb and nose into it?

RD has been doing a poor job, glad some change has come.

[organic]

Indeed. Isola, AMuS and formu1a Uno including talk in the paddock has all claimed it's plainly illegal in the regs so must be dealt with elsewhere like you say. It's not legal though, as has been suggested in this thread

It appears the technical directive put in place when Red Bull discovered this loop hole in the rules outlaws this practice, though I don't have the technical directive to quote directly.

Just added the story below which corroborates what the other sources you listed are all saying, "this is not allowed."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... 0stewards.

It is understood that the idea of adding moisture to tyres has been outlawed for many years through a technical directive that the FIA issued previously, so anyone found to have been adding liquid in this manner could risk being reported to the stewards.

Edit: https://formu1a.uno/en/f1-tyre-moisture ... nterlagos/

The TD reads “any modification to the inflation gas composition or moisture content aimed at reducing on-circuit pressures is not permitted. This includes increasing as well as reducing inflation gas moisture content, and the addition of any solid, liquid or gas not permitted for this use in the technical regulations.”

So in the TD they added the term "increasing" to the already existing language that mentions "reducing" moisture content.

Glad to see a quote of the TD.

But with most things in F1, since it is not clear on how this is enforsed, there os going to be speculation. If the TD is from 2016, all the technical regulations since then has not bothered to change the language as in the TD. Does thar make the TD from previous rule cycle, different tyre concept still applicable? Are TDs from 1990s still reffered?

Now coming back to enforcing it, the sensor inside the tyre, a holmolagated fia part, does pressure and temperature along with tyre id for logistics monitoring. How is moisture content in air montited? Do teams not allowed to purge the tyre after use before handing to pitelli?

The wing flexing is plain cheating, how many TDs are there for it? How many tests are there for it? Yet it continues unabated, what makes you think that tyre moisture content is any different? Did the race director say in Brazil that moisture indicator stickers will be added on rim and tyre inside to alivate concern (like he put seals on red bull cockpit to make sure the bib is not adjusted) or did he just stick his thumb and nose into it?

RD has been doing a poor job, glad some change has come.

As has been previously stated to you multiple times in other threads (1) (2), the job of the race director is not to carry out FIA inspections and maintain adherence to the technical regulations..

The RD is concerned with ensuring the sporting regulations are upheld and the safety of everyone involved

A change in race director won't affect governance of the technical side of the sport such as front wing flexing or water injection in the slightest

[Farnborough]

Theres a current thread viewtopic.php?t=31961&start=150 here, containing relevant discussions about this topic.

Rather than in this race thread, it would be logical in adding further debate to that one.

With more scrutiny, I doubt anyone would now want to be found to be infringing any of these directive.

[Sieper]

It’s so easy to do. You can just load up the compressor with air in the more humid hours of a day. What “is” this increasing or decreasing the humidity. You have not increased anything by loading it up a few hours earlier. So there is absolutely no reason to assume it won’t be done now.

[Seanspeed]

Ain’t nobody going to be trying their luck now the fia and Pirelli have said they’ll look into it. Doing it now it’s in the media would be outright stupidity.

What we need to watch - is if here is any pace or tyre characteristics over a stint that’s changed

I don't think it will have a big effect for Vegas. But at Abu Dhabi and certainly Qatar if there are very unexpected running orders we can read into it

Even then, only maybe. We'd still be making some big assumptions based on very little. Truth is, there's so little time left on the calendar that we'd not be able to get much of a look at any pattern. I mean, if Mclaren are suddenly and inexplicably absent at the front of the grid for the rest of the season maybe, but I am guessing little is going to change beyond standard track variance and circumstances.

[ScuderiaLeo]

I didn't mean to start a debate

In other news...

[Vanja #66]

Alpine also has a special Vegas livery, full pink looks cleaner than early-season black+pink+blue. Actually, they will use it in the final 3 races.

[GrizzleBoy]

I didn't mean to start a debate

In other news...

So,George Russel win, basically.

[Waz]

Ain’t nobody going to be trying their luck now the fia and Pirelli have said they’ll look into it. Doing it now it’s in the media would be outright stupidity.

What we need to watch - is if here is any pace or tyre characteristics over a stint that’s changed

Would it have any benefit in Vegas anyway? I can only see it being used on either hot tracks or high energy tracks.

Keeping tires warm enough in Vegas seems to be the difficult part.

[Waz]

It’s so easy to do. You can just load up the compressor with air in the more humid hours of a day. What “is” this increasing or decreasing the humidity. You have not increased anything by loading it up a few hours earlier. So there is absolutely no reason to assume it won’t be done now.

You get moisture build up in a compressor anyway from the actual compressor piston/s running hot. The air lines normally have a water trap fitted between the tank and hose.

[Farnborough]

Mercedes could be quite competitive here this race.

If there's one thing that demonstrates higher download, then cooler conditions and the ability of the platform to flex the tire carcass confirms that data. Their problem will, as usual, being able to maintain control of that accumulated load while taking the rear tire into it's bounce frequency. If they can avoid that aspect, they'll be fast off the bat.

We're soon going to see the competitive order, and how the recent "clarifications " of technical aspect play out.

Probably will be close within top 10 position.

[Sieper]

It’s so easy to do. You can just load up the compressor with air in the more humid hours of a day. What “is” this increasing or decreasing the humidity. You have not increased anything by loading it up a few hours earlier. So there is absolutely no reason to assume it won’t be done now.

You get moisture build up in a compressor anyway from the actual compressor piston/s running hot. The air lines normally have a water trap fitted between the tank and hose.

True, indeed, forgot about that. My own airbrush compressor has a moisture trap as well.

[Luscion]