Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

[PapayaFan481]

Please point to where there has been any evidence whatsoever that any team actually did use water in their tyres

The whole story started because Pirelli found water and watermarks after Singapore in the tires.

No, it started because Horner made an accusation with no evidence to back it up.

[PapayaFan481]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

It's the illegal mini DRS wing with a double penalty, without the top speed bonus with Spa wing they had to use Monza wing which cost them a lot of downforce in corners + without using Monza wing previously they only relied on FP3 and simulator to get the setup and balance right and as we saw they didn't get it right. Their overall gap in the race was exaggerated because of this.

If they experience overheating issues in Qatar and/or AD, we can discuss the potential influence of water-cooled tyres until Brasil. If they don't get into tyre issues and don't lose pace to others, water-cooling was definitely a nothingburger

Don't start that again.

Which race were they excluded from for the illegal wing again?

[Rikhart]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

It's the illegal mini DRS wing with a double penalty, without the top speed bonus with Spa wing they had to use Monza wing which cost them a lot of downforce in corners + without using Monza wing previously they only relied on FP3 and simulator to get the setup and balance right and as we saw they didn't get it right. Their overall gap in the race was exaggerated because of this.

If they experience overheating issues in Qatar and/or AD, we can discuss the potential influence of water-cooled tyres until Brasil. If they don't get into tyre issues and don't lose pace to others, water-cooling was definitely a nothingburger

Don't start that again.

Which race were they excluded from for the illegal wing again?

Did you miss the fact that they had to redo all their wings, thus declaring, in fact, that they were clearly illegal, and if they raced them again they would get possibly disqualified? Did that event go over your head somehow?

[dialtone]

Don't start that again.

Which race were they excluded from for the illegal wing again?

I guess the Ferrari engine wasn't illegal then. We agree on that then.

[Sieper]

Ouch. All top teams have been allowed grace, or grace periods. McLaren is back at the top, this is just a sign of it.

[mwillems]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

No water trickery would have been used in Vegas, it was too cold. And in Brazil there was already enough water outside the tyre. So since the accusation came out, there has been no situation where such a trick would be used and nothing at all to base any guesswork conclusion on.

As the team have already stated, a lack of learning in Vegas is the reason for the poor performance, and after doing some experimentation, they managed to find the pace of the leaders again in the final stint, having made changes to the settings and the driving style to prevent the graining.

Perhaps wait until you get to a hot race where this trick might actually be used.

[Andi76]

The versions of how this whole issue started vary in the press. In fact, Pirelli "started" the whole thing because moisture was found "inside" the tires of two teams after dismounting them. Horner then passed the whole thing on to the press. From what I heard, the two teams were Ferrari and McLaren and they each used 50 ml of water to keep their tire temperatures under control. This amount is actually enough to keep small "outliers" in terms of temperature under control if it is evenly distributed in the inner area of the tread. The fact that both Ferrari and McLaren have had more problems with tire temperatures since then seems to confirm this. Strictly speaking, however, this does not violate the regulations, because if I remember correctly, this only refers to tire inflation, which is an elastic term. And if something is elastic in this sense, then these are the points that the clever engineers in F1 have always found and exploited to their advantage.

[AR3-GP]

The versions of how this whole issue started vary in the press. In fact, Pirelli "started" the whole thing because moisture was found "inside" the tires of two teams after dismounting them. Horner then passed the whole thing on to the press. From what I heard, the two teams were Ferrari and McLaren and they each used 50 ml of water to keep their tire temperatures under control. This amount is actually enough to keep small "outliers" in terms of temperature under control if it is evenly distributed in the inner area of the tread. The fact that both Ferrari and McLaren have had more problems with tire temperatures since then seems to confirm this. Strictly speaking, however, this does not violate the regulations, because if I remember correctly, this only refers to tire inflation, which is an elastic term. And if something is elastic in this sense, then these are the points that the clever engineers in F1 have always found and exploited to their advantage.

Thank you for the contribution Andi but don’t you think it would be odd that two teams used the exact same quantity of water? Two independent teams arrive at the same conclusion to introduce precisely 50ml of water?


I actually remarked that I was more suspicious that Mclaren never made any statement denying the allegations, but Lando Norris made 2 remarks in recent days which suggest that to his knowledge, Mclaren wasn’t doing it. Vasseur already denied it a month ago. Perhaps it is naive on my part but if they deny it, then I believe them. It was primarily Mclaren never denying it that made me suspicious but Norris has effectively denied it in Las Vegas. I never suspected Ferrari of it to begin with given the way that Vasseur dismissed it immediately. So perhaps there’s nothing here.

[basti313]

I remember Norris just saying these topics did not make a big difference...a real deny I did not hear...is there a transcript of the interview?
But in the end it does not matter. As mentioned, water was found and the rule was clarified. I am convinced we will see in the last races what happened. Maybe we are lucky and this mixes up the WCC again.

[mwillems]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-nor ... complaints

He's just mocking that water had anything to do with Vegas.

[Farnborough]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

No water trickery would have been used in Vegas, it was too cold. And in Brazil there was already enough water outside the tyre. So since the accusation came out, there has been no situation where such a trick would be used and nothing at all to base any guesswork conclusion on.

As the team have already stated, a lack of learning in Vegas is the reason for the poor performance, and after doing some experimentation, they managed to find the pace of the leaders again in the final stint, having made changes to the settings and the driving style to prevent the graining.

Perhaps wait until you get to a hot race where this trick might actually be used.

I'd not be so certain that there would be no potential advantages IF there's any interaction.

No use, suggests that the only consideration it was speculated about, would be to ONLY cool the tire and prolong life through a stint.

BUT ... one of the important elements of graining is a unwanted difference in tire tread surface temperature vs wheel tire assembly latent temperature.
Given that scenario, also adding AN findings on internal air mass being dynamic rather than static, this having an effectiveness in heat transfer around the components, then raising air density through water addition COULD be seen as bringing positive advances in heat management. Thats within a graining risk race condition.

To state advantage, quicker and more consistent warming in low ambient temperature as seen in Vegas.

To make the assumption it was only to prevent too much heat is risky.

[marcel171281]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

No water trickery would have been used in Vegas, it was too cold. And in Brazil there was already enough water outside the tyre. So since the accusation came out, there has been no situation where such a trick would be used and nothing at all to base any guesswork conclusion on.

As the team have already stated, a lack of learning in Vegas is the reason for the poor performance, and after doing some experimentation, they managed to find the pace of the leaders again in the final stint, having made changes to the settings and the driving style to prevent the graining.

Perhaps wait until you get to a hot race where this trick might actually be used.

Brazil sprint, where the RB all of a sudden was the best in tyre life after months being not. Ferrari and McLaren dropped back in pace at the end. Could be a sign.

[mwillems]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

No water trickery would have been used in Vegas, it was too cold. And in Brazil there was already enough water outside the tyre. So since the accusation came out, there has been no situation where such a trick would be used and nothing at all to base any guesswork conclusion on.

As the team have already stated, a lack of learning in Vegas is the reason for the poor performance, and after doing some experimentation, they managed to find the pace of the leaders again in the final stint, having made changes to the settings and the driving style to prevent the graining.

Perhaps wait until you get to a hot race where this trick might actually be used.

Brazil sprint, where the RB all of a sudden was the best in tyre life after months being not. Ferrari and McLaren dropped back in pace at the end. Could be a sign.

It's also sprint, though, where setups can be not yet optimised, so I wouldn't be looking at that with any confidence.

[mwillems]

So McLaren was dominating with a 30s lead, and a few races later they are 30s behind.

Vegas track conditions favouring the Merc aside, I'm now a lot more inclined to believe there was some water trickery.

But it's difficult to understand if that's the only effect, or their mini-DRS rear wing has also been a huge cost. It would have been used at Vegas..

No water trickery would have been used in Vegas, it was too cold. And in Brazil there was already enough water outside the tyre. So since the accusation came out, there has been no situation where such a trick would be used and nothing at all to base any guesswork conclusion on.

As the team have already stated, a lack of learning in Vegas is the reason for the poor performance, and after doing some experimentation, they managed to find the pace of the leaders again in the final stint, having made changes to the settings and the driving style to prevent the graining.

Perhaps wait until you get to a hot race where this trick might actually be used.

I'd not be so certain that there would be no potential advantages IF there's any interaction.

No use, suggests that the only consideration it was speculated about, would be to ONLY cool the tire and prolong life through a stint.

BUT ... one of the important elements of graining is a unwanted difference in tire tread surface temperature vs wheel tire assembly latent temperature.
Given that scenario, also adding AN findings on internal air mass being dynamic rather than static, this having an effectiveness in heat transfer around the components, then raising air density through water addition COULD be seen as bringing positive advances in heat management. Thats within a graining risk race condition.

To state advantage, quicker and more consistent warming in low ambient temperature as seen in Vegas.

To make the assumption it was only to prevent too much heat is risky.

It'd be interesting but it feels like a bit of a leap at this point.

Russel's Teapot comes to mind with a lot of the statements around water and tyre temp management, and I think there are a lot of people looking for a teapot that aren't quite honest enough to say they don't have the tools to find it.

Ultimately, there is 0 evidence of such a thing, and plenty of doubt as to whether either of the races just passed might have even been suitable to use such a technique.

If in the absence of evidence people then choose to logically construct a scenario that suits them to be able to say, yes, they could have done it at these past two races, and therefor these results are well suited to be presented as argument to demonstrate they have done it, then you may as well be building a chocolate teapot.

A sensible approach would be to wait for conditions that you know full well would benefit from that technique, and start to see if you can see differences in performance.

The issue with that is that Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull have already improved their cars and the relative order has changed already. So what are you going to compare it against to get a sensible answer? The answer of "Are Mclaren struggling more with tyres" is only ever going to be given relative to what others can do. It is not a static target, and this question will never be properly answered unless actual proof of any sort has been discovered. Because maybe, if there is a difference in performance, it is because of upgrades and setup learnings that have changed the relative pace between the teams.

It has not been shown that Mclaren are doing anything and Pirelli have also stated this. The whole thread is largely just wishing "evidence" to life.

That's not a knock on your technical suggestion, by the way, it may well be the case. It's a more general response. I know that you enjoy these conversations from the art of the possible and devils advocate point of view, which I have no issue with.

[AR3-GP]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-nor ... complaints

He's just mocking that water had anything to do with Vegas.

In my opinion you can read between the lines. He’s dismissing the suggestion overall, and not just Vegas.