2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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RonMexico wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:32
PapayaFan481 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 21:53
venkyhere wrote:
24 Nov 2024, 19:20


The newest narrative by DTS F1 fans is - "Max won the WDC because he built up a points lead buffer in the first five races, before Miami, before Mclaren became the real 2024 car".
That just pisses me off. That narrative is sweeping the most important aspect under the carpet. As much as I would have liked a close WDC fight, and a new WDC winner, the 'buffer' was never really reduced by Norris, despite having the best car underneath him after Miami. To put things in perspective, that's 17/22 races, having the faster of the two cars, and having 100% success with updates, against a string of terrible backwards band-aid-fix updates by Redbull.

If we take a big picture view of the season so far,

a) within first 5 races, there was one DNF for Max and 4 wins.
b) the races that followed after the 'transformative' 6th Miami race, where McLaren became the faster car and became kinder to tyres - Imola, Canada, Barcelona -- Max won, by the tiniest of margins - strategy skill of the pitwall or driving skill of driver, or both.
c) Redbullring. Austria. The first signs of a 'proper fight' - Max grabbed a P5 with a puncture sacrifice, while Norris suffered terminal damage.
d) Silverstone was a huge opportunity lost with mickey mouse strategy by McLaren. Max had the 3rd/4th fastest car, but still finished P2 (great last stint on H) ahead of Norris.
e) Then came Hungaroring, Spa and Zandvoort - the RB20 was terrible by now compared to the McLaren, and still Max kept picking up P5 P4 and P2

By now, McLaren is the totally dominant machine and Redbull is surely the 3rd/4th fastest car.

f) Now comes Monza and Baku, and Max's car has almost become a midfielder (horrible setup change after FP3 in baku) and yet again Max is squeezing everything out of the car and bagging P6 and P5
g) The big change for Redbull happened in Singapore, for which they ditched their simulators and setup the car using FP1,2,3 data. Though the car was still much inferior to McLaren, it was best of the rest and Max grabbed an important P2, miles behind Norris nevertheless.
h) The RB20 became more predictable and some sort of floor solution was obtained (frankenstein diffuser or not) for COTA, and Max got to the podium in P3. The reason Norris finished behind, despite having a clearly superior car, was because he couldn't pass a much slower Max for almost 10+ laps, being in the DRS. That was a defensive masterclass from Max, and we could see a nervous Norris, afraid to attack.
i) All the fixes from Singapore and COTA didn't prove their worth in the rarefied air of Mexico, and the RB20 was a dud, miles behind the rampaging McLaren. But still Max picked up a patient (or impatient, rather, after the penalties) P6.
j) Brazil - we all know, it had less to do with the car, it was all driver. " #cojones "
k) LasVegas - again, Redbull was the 3rd fastest car and Max grabbed the 'par' P5 finish. However, McLaren ruined their car setup and Norris finished behind, at P6

When they say 'it was all because of the buffer built at the start' , look at all those points picked up by Max, from b) through j), That is the reason he is world champion (the only exception is Austria, where Norris came worse off a wheel to wheel battle, suffering more damage than Max. Hence can't blame Norris not picking up points there). . And not just because of those 4 wins from the first five races. And for what it's worth, it wasn't as if Norris was finishing outside the points in those first five races, he finished on the podium twice.
So much for the 'it was all from the initial wins' narrative. Max literally drove like a robot (excepting some brain fade moves in Mexico) and consistently grabbed what was possible with the car he had. That's why he won the WDC. Norris, on the other hand, didn't utilize the monster machine he was given by his engineers - whether by volition of his own driving or whether due to mistakes by the pitwall, the 'opportunity with the superior machine' was squandered.
Where did I state that??

I am not a DTS fan, can't stand that trash.

Fact is Max did build a points gap at the start of the season. Lando would have had to overcome the largest deficit in F1 history to win and McLaren did not have the dominant car, unlike what your so-called DTS fans will claim, and Lando and McLaren are still learning how to fight at the front, so understandably did not have the consistency that Max and Red Bull were able to manage, even when their car was 3rd or 4th fastest some weekends.

The problem McLaren faced was that, where Max had a clear advantage at the start of the season, Mclaren often had Ferrari or Mercedes in the mix as well.

So I actually agree with everything you said, apart from the beginning where you made false claims about what I have said.
Leclerc had a big lead over Verstappen in 2022 and it was reversed.

McLaren and Norris threw away a golden opportunity to win a drivers championship this year.
46 points after 3 races is very different to the deficit Lando would have had to overcome with far fewer races.
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

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Mattchu
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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RonMexico wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:32
Leclerc had a big lead over Verstappen in 2022 and it was reversed.

McLaren and Norris threw away a golden opportunity to win a drivers championship this year.
When did this happen? Verstappen won 4 of the first 6 races in which they both retired once.

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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mattchu wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:58
RonMexico wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:32
Leclerc had a big lead over Verstappen in 2022 and it was reversed.

McLaren and Norris threw away a golden opportunity to win a drivers championship this year.
When did this happen? Verstappen won 4 of the first 6 races in which they both retired once.
Verstappen had a 46 point deficit after 3 rounds and won the title by 146 points. Of course it required Ferrari's car to become comfortably 2nd fastest, but I would argue this happened this season to red bull, given Verstappen went 10 races without a win

Mostlyeels
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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_cerber1 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 19:28
Stella: But in the last stint, a combination of factors meant that we managed to avoid granulating the tyres on Lando's MCL38. We took a number of measures, including a very extreme set-up using the tools he had in the car, and he also changed his driving style a little bit. After that, he was able to keep up with the pace of the leaders.

https://twitter.com/F1BigData/status/18 ... 6001874104
When I saw this in the race, I assumed it was due to lower fuel in the final stint. One race in the second half of this year was similar with Lando. Interesting to find it's just in-car tools.

Bit more detail.

https://www.racefans.net/2024/11/24/ext ... -too-late/
“In the race, in the first two stints, we were just fighting front graining. There was no way that we could stop this phenomenon happening.

“But in the final [hard tyre] stint a combination of various things, including also some changes, quite extreme, that we did with some toys on the car and driving style, the graining didn’t happen on Lando’s car and the pace was as fast as the leaders.”

Stella said the race provided “important learnings for us as a team in terms of how we cope with this phenomenon and with these conditions.” However as the final two races of the year will take place on faster tracks in hotter conditions, those lessons may not prove useful until next year.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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PapayaFan481 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 21:53

Where did I state that??

I am not a DTS fan, can't stand that trash.

So I actually agree with everything you said, apart from the beginning where you made false claims about what I have said.
Mate, I was just supporting your original post with more data.
Not sure what made you interpret my post as something against yours.
Cheers :D

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mostlyeels wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 05:39
_cerber1 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 19:28
Stella: But in the last stint, a combination of factors meant that we managed to avoid granulating the tyres on Lando's MCL38. We took a number of measures, including a very extreme set-up using the tools he had in the car, and he also changed his driving style a little bit. After that, he was able to keep up with the pace of the leaders.

https://twitter.com/F1BigData/status/18 ... 6001874104
When I saw this in the race, I assumed it was due to lower fuel in the final stint. One race in the second half of this year was similar with Lando. Interesting to find it's just in-car tools.

Bit more detail.

https://www.racefans.net/2024/11/24/ext ... -too-late/
“In the race, in the first two stints, we were just fighting front graining. There was no way that we could stop this phenomenon happening.

“But in the final [hard tyre] stint a combination of various things, including also some changes, quite extreme, that we did with some toys on the car and driving style, the graining didn’t happen on Lando’s car and the pace was as fast as the leaders.”

Stella said the race provided “important learnings for us as a team in terms of how we cope with this phenomenon and with these conditions.” However as the final two races of the year will take place on faster tracks in hotter conditions, those lessons may not prove useful until next year.
Good to know that they have root caused the problem and even more glad that the 'on-the-fly' fix they tried within the race, worked out very well.

FittingMechanics
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Saying McLaren could have won 3-4 more races does not mean that the team would be dominant. Dominant wins are wins where you are not really challenged. Like in Hungary, Zaandvoort and Singapore. All three tracks are super high downforce so it obviously points to the car having a bigger margin (is dominant) on those types of tracks.

Saying McLaren had a dominant car in other races is a fallacy because if it was true, then operational mistakes would not lose them the wins. Kind of like Red Bull in 2023 was able to make mistakes in races and Max would still win, or how Perez ended up P2 in WDC in 2023. That is a dominant car.

Obviously if someone thinks dominant car = car that wins then it is impossible to talk about this because he have fundamental difference in how we view various terms.

Farnborough
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 06:01
Mostlyeels wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 05:39
_cerber1 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 19:28
Stella: But in the last stint, a combination of factors meant that we managed to avoid granulating the tyres on Lando's MCL38. We took a number of measures, including a very extreme set-up using the tools he had in the car, and he also changed his driving style a little bit. After that, he was able to keep up with the pace of the leaders.

https://twitter.com/F1BigData/status/18 ... 6001874104
When I saw this in the race, I assumed it was due to lower fuel in the final stint. One race in the second half of this year was similar with Lando. Interesting to find it's just in-car tools.

Bit more detail.

https://www.racefans.net/2024/11/24/ext ... -too-late/
“In the race, in the first two stints, we were just fighting front graining. There was no way that we could stop this phenomenon happening.

“But in the final [hard tyre] stint a combination of various things, including also some changes, quite extreme, that we did with some toys on the car and driving style, the graining didn’t happen on Lando’s car and the pace was as fast as the leaders.”

Stella said the race provided “important learnings for us as a team in terms of how we cope with this phenomenon and with these conditions.” However as the final two races of the year will take place on faster tracks in hotter conditions, those lessons may not prove useful until next year.
Good to know that they have root caused the problem and even more glad that the 'on-the-fly' fix they tried within the race, worked out very well.
Interesting they changed it on the fly to specifically counter front .? graining. Speculation, but likely would incorporate brake balance further forward, no coast into brake zone, higher diff locking possible in corner in trying to "push" front of chassis into front tire "conflict" mildly.

Hard application of brake with front bias (this is what "brake magic" did :D ) to generate more wheel temperature, lateral understeer to promote more tire temp, combination too bring up overall wheel & tire assembly in to sweet spot and reduce graining.

Lando would have to drive that differently too, but sounds like they got it there.

Anyone see any steering wheel,adjustment from onboard that would show anything ?

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Mattchu
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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organic wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 23:11
Mattchu wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:58
When did this happen? Verstappen won 4 of the first 6 races in which they both retired once.
Verstappen had a 46 point deficit after 3 rounds and won the title by 146 points. Of course it required Ferrari's car to become comfortably 2nd fastest, but I would argue this happened this season to red bull, given Verstappen went 10 races without a win
Come on! You of all people should know the first several rounds of the championship in a new set of regulations are teams just working out their cars and getting rid of any gremlins, hence Max had 2 DNF`s in the first 3.
The two situations just aren`t comparable, the Red Bull and Max were brilliant everywhere in 2022 once they got a few issues sorted...
This year McLaren, post Miami have built a car that can compete at the front, the trouble has been in certain circumstances, Ferrari were faster, others Mercedes, even Red Bull with Max, the papaya car hasn`t been at the level of the 22/23 Red Bull that could wipe the floor with everyone, pretty much anywhere!

Lets just hope next year we have 4 teams capable of wins right from the start...

Ben1980
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Would be interesting what the perception had been if Lando didn't (luckily?) Win in Miami. If he had come second, after being 5th (?) On the grid. Then had similar results but just coming up short of the RB. I think it would be more of, look how much they've closed the gap as now challenging.

If they don't win Miami, I doubt anyone starts saying they are the best car.

FittingMechanics
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Ben1980 wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 16:45
Would be interesting what the perception had been if Lando didn't (luckily?) Win in Miami. If he had come second, after being 5th (?) On the grid. Then had similar results but just coming up short of the RB. I think it would be more of, look how much they've closed the gap as now challenging.

If they don't win Miami, I doubt anyone starts saying they are the best car.
I fully agree. The whole idea that McLaren had the fastest car since Miami is completely wrong.

The car was able to fight for podiums and challenge for wins but it was not clearly fastest anywhere except three high downforce tracks. It may have been fastest in Monaco as well but with Leclerc qualifying ahead and no pitstops (IIRC) it was impossible to show it.

Cs98
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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PapayaFan481 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 22:50
46 points after 3 races is very different to the deficit Lando would have had to overcome with far fewer races.
Depends on when you start counting. For me Miami (round 6) is the natural place since that is where the McLaren was transformed unlike anything I've ever seen in season.

2022. After round 3, 19 rounds to go, gap 46 points. Gap closed by round 6.

2024. After round 5, 19 rounds to go, gap 52 points. Gap extended to 63 by round 22.

In other words, Lando had the same amount of race weekends to catch a similar gap.

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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It's pretty tedious reading the last few pages, not gonna lie!
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 05:58
PapayaFan481 wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 21:53

Where did I state that??

I am not a DTS fan, can't stand that trash.

So I actually agree with everything you said, apart from the beginning where you made false claims about what I have said.
Mate, I was just supporting your original post with more data.
Not sure what made you interpret my post as something against yours.
Cheers :D
Ah. In that case I apologise. I read it wrong.
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

Mostlyeels
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 11:10
Interesting they changed it on the fly to specifically counter front .? graining. Speculation, but likely would incorporate brake balance further forward, no coast into brake zone, higher diff locking possible in corner in trying to "push" front of chassis into front tire "conflict" mildly.

Hard application of brake with front bias (this is what "brake magic" did :D ) to generate more wheel temperature, lateral understeer to promote more tire temp, combination too bring up overall wheel & tire assembly in to sweet spot and reduce graining.
Another parallel tidbit: no (or not many) lockups going into corners on race day (or on cold tyres coming out of the pits), versus lots of lockups in practice, from a wide range of drivers and teams. Brake bias adjustments for that would be further to the rear normally? Obviously factoring out adjusting the braking point and driver skill.