Red Bull suspects McLaren and a few other teams of filling water into the tyres

[mwillems]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-nor ... complaints

He's just mocking that water had anything to do with Vegas.

In my opinion you can read between the lines. He’s dismissing the suggestion overall, and not just Vegas.

He seems only to be talking about the cars behaviour in Vegas from what I can see. In any case, I'm not sure what a denial means. It doesn't evidence anything.

There's no evidence anything did or did not happen.

[AR3-GP]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-nor ... complaints

He's just mocking that water had anything to do with Vegas.

In my opinion you can read between the lines. He’s dismissing the suggestion overall, and not just Vegas.

He seems only to be talking about the cars behaviour in Vegas from what I can see. In any case, I'm not sure what a denial means. It doesn't evidence anything.

There's no evidence anything did or did not happen.

There were water marks in the wheel rims in Singapore. So that is a potential evidence point. Whether that means they were doing what is speculated is another matter entirely.

[mwillems]

In my opinion you can read between the lines. He’s dismissing the suggestion overall, and not just Vegas.

He seems only to be talking about the cars behaviour in Vegas from what I can see. In any case, I'm not sure what a denial means. It doesn't evidence anything.

There's no evidence anything did or did not happen.

There were water marks in the wheel rims in Singapore. So that is a potential evidence point. Whether that means they were doing what is speculated is another matter entirely.

Mario Isola of Pirelli:

“I cannot see anything strange from the data we have,” said Isola (via Motorsport.com).

“I don’t have any evidence."

“I’m not aware of any issue, but I heard the story, and I have also tried to understand why it should be done, which now I have an idea. But for the rest, it’s all in the hands of the FIA.”


That's a direct quote from Pirelli, who in response to the rumours of water being found said that they had seen nothing abnormal.



I'm actually not saying Mclaren have done nothing, there is no evidence of it. But there is also no evidence the other way, and that's where the burden sits. So until actual evidences arises, many keyboards are simply getting a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

[AR3-GP]

He seems only to be talking about the cars behaviour in Vegas from what I can see. In any case, I'm not sure what a denial means. It doesn't evidence anything.

There's no evidence anything did or did not happen.

There were water marks in the wheel rims in Singapore. So that is a potential evidence point. Whether that means they were doing what is speculated is another matter entirely.

Mario Isola of Pirelli:

“I cannot see anything strange from the data we have,” said Isola (via Motorsport.com).

“I don’t have any evidence."

“I’m not aware of any issue, but I heard the story, and I have also tried to understand why it should be done, which now I have an idea. But for the rest, it’s all in the hands of the FIA.”


That's a direct quote from Pirelli, who in response to the rumours of water being found said that they had seen nothing abnormal.

You are missing a vital piece of context which when taken into consideration makes your quoted remarks useless:

the FIA does not currently have any evidence available to declare that McLaren has used this trick in some GPs. As explained by Mario Isola, "it is impossible to check the tyres of the previous rounds, because the checks should be done at the moment. We would certainly not find water but we could analyze the humidity levels found inside the tire."

https://autoracer.it/it/acqua-nelle-gom ... n-ha-prove


That's also a direct quote by Pirelli. They never inspected the tires in previous rounds. So, when your quotes are taken at face value, Isola is not lying. Pirelli never found any evidence of anything...but it's because they weren't looking for it as he explained above. The checks required were not done and cannot be done for past races. It is a matter of tautology that Pirelli would not have evidence if they never checked the tires for evidence...

The checks started at the Brazilian GP.

[mwillems]

There were water marks in the wheel rims in Singapore. So that is a potential evidence point. Whether that means they were doing what is speculated is another matter entirely.

Mario Isola of Pirelli:

“I cannot see anything strange from the data we have,” said Isola (via Motorsport.com).

“I don’t have any evidence."

“I’m not aware of any issue, but I heard the story, and I have also tried to understand why it should be done, which now I have an idea. But for the rest, it’s all in the hands of the FIA.”


That's a direct quote from Pirelli, who in response to the rumours of water being found said that they had seen nothing abnormal.

You are missing a vital piece of context which when taken into consideration makes your quoted remarks useless:

the FIA does not currently have any evidence available to declare that McLaren has used this trick in some GPs. As explained by Mario Isola, "it is impossible to check the tyres of the previous rounds, because the checks should be done at the moment. We would certainly not find water but we could analyze the humidity levels found inside the tire."

https://autoracer.it/it/acqua-nelle-gom ... n-ha-prove


That's also a direct quote by Pirelli. They never inspected the tires in previous rounds. So, when your quotes are taken at face value, Isola is not lying. Pirelli never found any evidence of anything...but it's because they weren't looking for it as he explained above. The checks required were not done and cannot be done for past races. It is a matter of tautology that Pirelli would not have evidence if they never checked the tires for evidence...

The checks started at the Brazilian GP.

But how does any of this amount to any actual evidence?

[AR3-GP]

But how does any of this amount to any actual evidence?

The "evidence" (of what, I do not know), seems to be the water marks observed at the Singapore GP in the wheel rims of 2 teams but as I said earlier, the way the story has been written (both teams using identical amounts of water...50 mL to be precise) is too improbable, and both teams have more or less said it's nonsense.

I suspected Mclaren until Norris made comments during the weekend in Vegas because it's the first time anyone from Mclaren ever acknowledged the suspicions. Ferrari denied it over a month ago.

[hollus]

What is a water mark on the wheel rim, exactly?
And a subtle point should anyone want to place 50 mL of water in the tire: adding them might be trivial, removing them afterwards might be almost impossible.

[AR3-GP]

What is a water mark on the wheel rim, exactly?
And a subtle point should anyone want to place 50 mL of water in the tire: adding them might be trivial, removing them afterwards might be almost impossible.

Why do you need to remove it?

[mwillems]

There were water marks in the wheel rims in Singapore. So that is a potential evidence point. Whether that means they were doing what is speculated is another matter entirely.

Mario Isola of Pirelli:

“I cannot see anything strange from the data we have,” said Isola (via Motorsport.com).

“I don’t have any evidence."

“I’m not aware of any issue, but I heard the story, and I have also tried to understand why it should be done, which now I have an idea. But for the rest, it’s all in the hands of the FIA.”


That's a direct quote from Pirelli, who in response to the rumours of water being found said that they had seen nothing abnormal.

You are missing a vital piece of context which when taken into consideration makes your quoted remarks useless:

the FIA does not currently have any evidence available to declare that McLaren has used this trick in some GPs. As explained by Mario Isola, "it is impossible to check the tyres of the previous rounds, because the checks should be done at the moment. We would certainly not find water but we could analyze the humidity levels found inside the tire."

https://autoracer.it/it/acqua-nelle-gom ... n-ha-prove


That's also a direct quote by Pirelli. They never inspected the tires in previous rounds. So, when your quotes are taken at face value, Isola is not lying. Pirelli never found any evidence of anything...but it's because they weren't looking for it as he explained above. The checks required were not done and cannot be done for past races. It is a matter of tautology that Pirelli would not have evidence if they never checked the tires for evidence...

The checks started at the Brazilian GP.

It doesn't really matter what the reason is for no evidence there is no evidence. The absence of evidence can't then be used to evidence that it happened.

We have no clue if water would have helped in Brazil or Vegas due to the fact that conditions were extreme outliers.

There is nothing yet to support the general tin foil hat fashionistas assertions and due to the relative and changeable nature of F1s performance, nor will.their be.

We don't need to go over it endlessly, just PM or quote me if there is anything more than conjecture.

The whole technical aspect of it is fascinating though, and I'd love to see this explored and will follow the thread for the tidbits of technical analysis.

[mwillems]

What is a water mark on the wheel rim, exactly?
And a subtle point should anyone want to place 50 mL of water in the tire: adding them might be trivial, removing them afterwards might be almost impossible.

Why do you need to remove it?

Id venture because a watermark is evidence there was water, at some point. Not only that, it means the water sat in that spot for some time.. As the tyre would be cold, the water would be droplets not humidity, I'd guess and it would not leave the tyre entirely when depressurised and you'd expect to see water inside the tyre and on the hub. If this has gone unnoticed, either water wasn't their or it was removed.

Can it be removed? You'd have to depressurise the tyre whilst hot and refill with dry air i suppose.

It'd be also be interesting to understand the material of the rim and how long standing water takes to leave a watermark.

The idea that water was left inside the tyres for such a length of time to leave a watermark also seems a bit odd.

[chrisc90]

Ive took a good few tyres off in my time, and the ones with/had water in ive never noticed any water marks inside the tyre.

Ive seen moisture on the rim, but dont think ive seen any staining.

[AR3-GP]

Papaya wheel rims:



Presumably the staining comes from minerals or other impurities left behind when the water vaporizes (which is why you'd want to use distilled water). The wheel rim is painted so surface corrosion would be unlikely.

[mwillems]

The impurities could come from the tyre itself if injected. But it's also.possible the rims were stained prior to the tyre being inserted into the rims.

It just all seems like another nothing burger. And for the record I also argued the lack of any evidence with the asymmetric braking situation.

It's just another step in the propaganda war, it seems to me.

[AR3-GP]

The impurities could come from the tyre itself if injected. But it's also.possible the rims were stained prior to the tyre being inserted into the rims.

That's true. I don't know how it works in F1, but when I get new tires put on my car, I observed that the dealer used a pasty lubricant on the bead of the tire before they slipped it over the wheel rim with the tire machine. Some of the residue was left behind on the sidewall of the tire where it meets the wheel rim. It's likely that there is more of "it" on the "inside" if that makes sense. Would Pirelli have confused themselves...anything's possible...

[PapayaFan481]

Don't start that again.

Which race were they excluded from for the illegal wing again?

I guess the Ferrari engine wasn't illegal then. We agree on that then.

No. They were clever using a loophole that was then closed. Now, if they'd run it in 2020, THEN it would have been illegal.