Red Bull RB6

[autogyro]

just found this, hope it's not a repost:
http://www.formula1journal.com/2010/03/ ... lood1.html

but if McLaren are so furious... it can't be that simple and easily copied

Please read the thread. It is a re post.
I raced a car with a similar system in 1976, so this is not by any means rocket science.
It is shame that both Ferrari and McLaren are not up to speed with it but not in any way unusual.
Aero rules in these camps and I believe much of the root technology has been forgotten.
Most has been done more than once in the past.

[djos]

I will try again.
Imagine the cars sprung mass as a cube mounted on a spring.
Any force down on the cube, extra fuel weight, DF etc will compress the spring which will act as a conventional suspension.
The bottom of the spring is joined at a spring plate to a shaft which connects to a piston in a cylinder.
The cylinder is part of the hub carrier and is unsprung.
There is oil either side of the piston fed from an oil reservoir which is pressurized with gas.
There is a pressure measuring valve at the feed for both the upper and lower sides of the cylinder and a pressure changing valve on each side.
When load increases on the coil spring the spring shortens in length but it also increases the load on the piston in the cylinder this increases the pressure against the gas supply to the lower part of the cylinder this opens the pressure valve to the lower part of the cylinder increasing feed pressure and pushing the piston up to a pre determined point that maintains the wanted ride height plus the difference in spring length.
The system is continualy operating to keep the ride heigh the same and even, no matter what the load input source/amount or the vehicle dynamic loads.
When the car is stationary and there are no inputs the pressure is slightly biased to jack the vehicle mass up to maximum. This helps to keep the plank off the ground and keeps the system legal in parc ferme.
Now work out the dozen at least variations that can be designed into an F1 suspension geometry.

Exactly, clearly the smart option and totally legal!

[segedunum]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=362347

best i can do at the mo

Rival teams are ferreting. That's what they're doing here. They don't understand what Red Bull are doing. If they knew what was going on, as the teams do with McLaren's F-duct, then they would just go about implementing it as fast as possible. The problem is that I suspect that other teams suspect that Red Bull are altering their ride height while the car is moving and they're just trying to flush out the parc ferme alteration option. I think most of us have suspected that it's an awful lot more complex than bleeding some gas off in parc ferme, or adding gas in before the race through a loophole.

It was thought that Ferrari had a manual system on their car somewhere, but that just wouldn't give the amount of adjustment required to be useful I don't think. If Ferrari themselves protest against Red Bull then the mystery deepens. I think perhaps rival teams fear this will become active suspension all over again because Red Bull will still be tuning whatever this system is, if indeed it does alter ride height during the race.

It's not a suprise to me to see something like this on an Adrian Newey car. He badgered Patrick Head for a while to get active suspension working because he knew of the aerodynamic benefits it would bring.

[autogyro]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=362347

best i can do at the mo

Rival teams are ferreting. That's what they're doing here. They don't understand what Red Bull are doing. If they knew what was going on, as the teams do with McLaren's F-duct, then they would just go about implementing it as fast as possible. The problem is that I suspect that other teams suspect that Red Bull are altering their ride height while the car is moving and they're just trying to flush out the parc ferme alteration option. I think most of us have suspected that it's an awful lot more complex than bleeding some gas off in parc ferme, or adding gas in before the race through a loophole.

It was thought that Ferrari had a manual system on their car somewhere, but that just wouldn't give the amount of adjustment required to be useful I don't think. If Ferrari themselves protest against Red Bull then the mystery deepens. I think perhaps rival teams fear this will become active suspension all over again because Red Bull will still be tuning whatever this system is, if indeed it does alter ride height during the race.

It's not a suprise to me to see something like this on an Adrian Newey car. He badgered Patrick Head for a while to get active suspension working because he knew of the aerodynamic benefits it would bring.

It was earlier than that when Adrian was at Leyton House.

[segedunum]

just found this, hope it's not a repost:
http://www.formula1journal.com/2010/03/ ... lood1.html

but if McLaren are so furious... it can't be that simple and easily copied

Please read the thread. It is a re post. I raced a car with a similar system in 1976, so this is not by any means rocket science.

I've always thought this was an awful lot more complex than bleeding some air in parc ferme and I've long suspected Adrian Newey was itching to get active 'passive' suspension on the car somehow to maintain ride height, but have reserved judgement on what might be going on. However, this looks entirely plausible. Basically, it's just a new damper and can be a part of the suspension system itself as the legal J-damper is (or whatever they call the thing now). People are thinking of ride height adjustment when they should be thinking the other way of keeping the ride height static, or close to static.

However, this system will be insanely complex to get right I would have thought in a Formula 1 car. This isn't a road car. It will have to be tuned in such a way that the ride height varies in concert with the suspension travel, and they'll have to work out the extent to which that happens, they'll have to tune how it works in corners (can it work laterally, and quick enough, to dampen things like roll?), can it work with or replace a J-damper system as a unified system, they'll have to tune it in concert with aerodynamic pressure so it can still vary in corners versus straights, they'll have to tune it to the aerodynamic tendencies of the car, it needs to work under high G....... There's just a few ideas I haven't given much thought to. There's a big minefield of development out there.

I'm suprised no one has thought of this before. Perhaps the fuel weight just hasn't been enough in the past for it to have been worth the effort? If Red Bull have cobbled this together over the winter then I'm impressed and perhaps surprised they've been as reliable as they've been. They will still have a long way to go to perfect this thing as well.

[PlatinumZealot]

I will try again.
Imagine the cars sprung mass as a cube mounted on a spring.
Any force down on the cube, extra fuel weight, DF etc will compress the spring which will act as a conventional suspension.
The bottom of the spring is joined at a spring plate to a shaft which connects to a piston in a cylinder.
The cylinder is part of the hub carrier and is unsprung.
There is oil either side of the piston fed from an oil reservoir which is pressurized with gas.
There is a pressure measuring valve at the feed for both the upper and lower sides of the cylinder and a pressure changing valve on each side.
When load increases on the coil spring the spring shortens in length but it also increases the load on the piston in the cylinder this increases the pressure against the gas supply to the lower part of the cylinder this opens the pressure valve to the lower part of the cylinder increasing feed pressure and pushing the piston up to a pre determined point that maintains the wanted ride height plus the difference in spring length.
The system is continualy operating to keep the ride heigh the same and even, no matter what the load input source/amount or the vehicle dynamic loads.
When the car is stationary and there are no inputs the pressure is slightly biased to jack the vehicle mass up to maximum. This helps to keep the plank off the ground and keeps the system legal in parc ferme.
Now work out the dozen at least variations that can be designed into an F1 suspension geometry.

I don't follow the part in bold. Go into a little more detail for that part please.

[autogyro]

I will try again.
Imagine the cars sprung mass as a cube mounted on a spring.
Any force down on the cube, extra fuel weight, DF etc will compress the spring which will act as a conventional suspension.
The bottom of the spring is joined at a spring plate to a shaft which connects to a piston in a cylinder.
The cylinder is part of the hub carrier and is unsprung.
There is oil either side of the piston fed from an oil reservoir which is pressurized with gas.
There is a pressure measuring valve at the feed for both the upper and lower sides of the cylinder and a pressure changing valve on each side.
When load increases on the coil spring the spring shortens in length but it also increases the load on the piston in the cylinder this increases the pressure against the gas supply to the lower part of the cylinder this opens the pressure valve to the lower part of the cylinder increasing feed pressure and pushing the piston up to a pre determined point that maintains the wanted ride height plus the difference in spring length.
The system is continualy operating to keep the ride heigh the same and even, no matter what the load input source/amount or the vehicle dynamic loads.
When the car is stationary and there are no inputs the pressure is slightly biased to jack the vehicle mass up to maximum. This helps to keep the plank off the ground and keeps the system legal in parc ferme.
Now work out the dozen at least variations that can be designed into an F1 suspension geometry.

I don't follow the part in bold. Go into a little more detail for that part please.

The movement of the piston caused by the increases in load operates a valve that increases the pressure to the lower part of the cylinder, this pressure is balanced against the set ride height pressure in a valve chest.
This is similar to the way an automatic transmission valve chest balances input pressures and output operating pressures (based on 35 years working in the technology).

The hydro/gas control can be achieved in a number of ways depending on how it is intigrated into the suspension geometry and the operation of the sprung suspension. The cylinders could be multi purpose with dual internal pistons working control and measure or there could be a shock absorbing action also taking place. The valves would also be shock closing, so that a sudden load would not operate the system allowing the sprung system and or the intigral s/abs to absorb bumps etc.

[raceman]

RBR needs more speed, says Vettel


will we see someone else other than RBR guys get pole??

[Pandamasque]

RBR needs more speed, says Vettel


will we see someone else other than RBR guys get pole??

Renault have a one.

[djos]

Does anyone know when Renault will introduce its upgraded engines?

[marcush.]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 40347.html

I put this into the RB6 thread ,because it is tetimony to a design or manufacturing flaw of the Red Bull...

Dr Marko admitted they had this problem before(!) but thought they had it covered.

the starting point was the heavy hit on the curb before (!) as we suspected already.
the wheel retention system ...drive pegs and holes in the rim are the culprit ..the impact was enough to weaken or stress the pegs enough to fail ...for the second time.. already..as admitted.. the pegs snapped under applying the brakes ,causing the sparks as they started to machine throu whatever...
oh dear ..these guys have a long ways to go still.. my two cents.

[tok-tokkie]

It has been said here that Vettel is partly to blame for his troubles. Your source saying that the origin of this failure was the hard knock the car took on the curbs leads me to watch his actions in future. It pays to have sympathy for a machine.

[autogyro]

I find that difficult to believe as the complete cause marcus.
The rear wheels have to deal with drive torque as well and I have never seen this fault before even on rear wheel drive pegs.
If the wheel was loose for some reason, or held off the mating surface by something it would make more sense.
Unless there was a material fault, a tight fit between wheel and hub would be almost impossible to break.
I have even had a wheel come off on a FWD race saloon with steel wheels when the wheel split between the wheel nut holes. It left a still solid wheel center bolted to the hub.

[PlatinumZealot]

I would just switch them to steel if they aren't already. Maybe be a few grams heavier but those would be much more resistant to impact.

[marcush.]

I find that difficult to believe as the complete cause marcus.
The rear wheels have to deal with drive torque as well and I have never seen this fault before even on rear wheel drive pegs.
If the wheel was loose for some reason, or held off the mating surface by something it would make more sense.
Unless there was a material fault, a tight fit between wheel and hub would be almost impossible to break.
I have even had a wheel come off on a FWD race saloon with steel wheels when the wheel split between the wheel nut holes. It left a still solid wheel center bolted to the hub.

you are quite right there .I also find it amazing to have 5 drive pegs able to shear
with a wheel that has a suitable clamping force to the hub in place...it is rather odd to be honest....and it has to leadd to some really interesting investigation just what is going on there..

cotrary to a production car type wheel fixing the drive pegs double up for wheel retention so they are not only loaded in shear but also in tension..so that is giving you a lot of headache just what is the correct torque and of course you will have so many variables with surface friction...galling etc...
but in RBs case it could only be the holes in the rim for securing the drive pegs may be too thin walled and breaking up under those instant forces on brake application..and clamping forces not sufficient...as a first guess ...
I fully agree that the drive pegs itself would not be very critical..

I was not commenting it was just what the team released as explanation.