Pirelli will take Bridgestone's place after 2010

[Jersey Tom]

Jersey Tom, I believe that you are not familiar with the cost structures in industrial development and manufacturing.

I work for a tire company... race tires specifically. I may know a thing or two...

[piast9]

I don't get it... It isn't enough to limit the brake disc diameter?

I don't think so. Even with brake disc diameter limited there would be much more space for brake cooling system and for brake calliper inside of 18" rim. So the brake efficiency would rise which is the last thing the F1 needs.

I'd welcome steel brakes in 18" wheels as I suppose it would cause more outbraking manoeuvres during the race.

[WhiteBlue]

Jersey Tom, I believe that you are not familiar with the cost structures in industrial development and manufacturing.

I work for a tire company... race tires specifically. I may know a thing or two...

Working in a tyre company will not automatically give you the necessary background to make sound decisions on the complexity issue we are dealing with. Let's assume you are somewhere at Goodyear in the competition tyres department. Unless you are fairly high up in the hierarchy - lets say director level, head of a department or in controlling - you will never be involved in such issues. Do you make 30% of your money on variable or performance related pay? If the answer is yes, I believe you should be competent in the issue and you better believe what the Michelin guys have analysed.

[Edis]

Synergy would be cost saving and open up more options in suspension design. Plus the option of steel brakes would be feasible.

So the problem now is that you couldn't mount large enough steel breaks?

No, that is not a problem.

The whole 'steel brake' thing is also a misunderstanding, what people mean are grey iron rotors. Still, carbon carbon rotors offer advantages over iron rotors such as lower weight and longer life, the latter can infact make the carbon carbon rotor cheaper to use.

[Edis]

I don't get it... It isn't enough to limit the brake disc diameter?

I don't think so. Even with brake disc diameter limited there would be much more space for brake cooling system and for brake calliper inside of 18" rim. So the brake efficiency would rise which is the last thing the F1 needs.

I'd welcome steel brakes in 18" wheels as I suppose it would cause more outbraking manoeuvres during the race.

Common misunderstanding. Braking performance is grip limited, not brake limited.

[ISLAMATRON]

I don't get it... It isn't enough to limit the brake disc diameter?

I don't think so. Even with brake disc diameter limited there would be much more space for brake cooling system and for brake calliper inside of 18" rim. So the brake efficiency would rise which is the last thing the F1 needs.

I'd welcome steel brakes in 18" wheels as I suppose it would cause more outbraking manoeuvres during the race.

Common misunderstanding. Braking performance is grip limited, not brake limited.

Not at F1 top speeds, not 1 of the drivers, even Webbo, can lock the tires at initial braking because the rotational momentum of the tires is higher than what even the carbon/carbon brakes can overcome.

They are brake limited to a certain speed and then grip limited.

[engineguru00]

EDIT: I don't know a whole lot about the manufacturing requirements, logistics, etc. of setting up a new F1 tire manufacturer, so I will just stick to what I know some about.

I see one huge hurdle to a new tire manufacturer trying to manufacture F1 tires, the ability to actually test them. I am not talking about sticking them on a car, but the preliminary drum/flat track testing that all tire manufacturers do before sending a tire to market. The data from these tests is also crucial to designing the suspension of the car that the tire is set to go on. Most of my information on testing facilities is a few months old, so some of this may have changed recently.

Drum test machines (which from what I know is what most tire manufacturers have) do not produce results that can be correctly correlated to track performance. The only real way to do bench testing that can be moved over to the real world is on a flat track tester. As far as I know, there is only 1 location in the world that can do F1 loads and speeds simultaneously. There is a several month waiting list last I heard to get a set of tires on the machine and it costs several thousand dollars a day. Not that whatever tire manufacturer takes up the challenge couldn't manage this, but it just throws another wrench in the mix.

[WhiteBlue]

Very sensible point!

Lets not forget the Indy 2005 disaster when Michelin failed to test their 2005 side wall construction for the dynamic loads which occurred with the 2005 cars and the banked turn 13 of the Indy track.



This was the result!

So F1 really have no choice but putting on a very expensive winter testing program with several cars and tracks covering the more demanding situations. If they stick to the 18 inch low profile sports car designs they have quite a bit of experience with different temps, tracks and vehicles that can be expanded.

[engineguru00]

I think most companies are saying no publicly right now, but I would be extremely surprised if all the big players didn't have a team working on the feasibility of an F1 tire. With Bridgestone leaving at the end of the season, whoever is going to try to take over is probably going to have at least a prototype done by then (similar to F1 team selection, teams had to be started already to get a spot).

I hate to relate Nascar to F1, but think about how much testing is done on those tire every time they change the compound or construction and those are just minor tweaks. Due to when the season lands, trying to get track data in the winter that actually means something in the summer is another challenge. I know we cannot test outside in Buffalo until April 1st most years because the tires struggle to get up to temperature, the brakes wont hold heat, and the engine runs too cool. I can't imagine things can be that much different in that respect in Europe. This would mean all that testing would actually be need to be made before the winter hits, so it could be interesting.

[WhiteBlue]

F1 has tracks in the southern hemisphere where winter tests can be made, but it is expensive.

[engineguru00]

True, I can't imagine most teams wanting to fly equipment away to do some winter tire tests when all their resources are focused on manufacturing of the new car. Something tells me Calspan is going to be quite busy in a few months.

[Dukeage]

There may be 1 or 1T licenced circuits in the Southern Hemisphere, but I wouldn't be surprised if the only permanent one is Interlagos which is quite wet in the off-season. Also, bearing in mind testing in Bahrain has stopped, it appears that there is current a gentleman's agreement not to test outside Europe, and if someone does I feel sure it'll go in to the sporting regulations.

[ISLAMATRON]

When the realize they have no tires to race on all that FOTA bullshit will be thrown right out the window... hopefully a window of a high rise building and with Luca right along with it.

[Edis]

I don't think so. Even with brake disc diameter limited there would be much more space for brake cooling system and for brake calliper inside of 18" rim. So the brake efficiency would rise which is the last thing the F1 needs.

I'd welcome steel brakes in 18" wheels as I suppose it would cause more outbraking manoeuvres during the race.

Common misunderstanding. Braking performance is grip limited, not brake limited.

Not at F1 top speeds, not 1 of the drivers, even Webbo, can lock the tires at initial braking because the rotational momentum of the tires is higher than what even the carbon/carbon brakes can overcome.

They are brake limited to a certain speed and then grip limited.

Carbon carbon brakes do not offer a higher coefficient of friction than iron rotors. Their coefficient of friction is typically between 0.3 and 0.5 and there are conventional brake materials that are much better than that. So with similar sized brakes, the braking torque isn't higher with carbon/carbon brakes.

Braking torque depends on the clamp force on the pads multiplied with the coefficient of friction, the mean radius of the brake pad/disc and the number of friction faces. So for a F1 brake, having a mean radius of around 12 cm, two friction faces and a coefficient of friction of around 0.5, 1000 N clamping force will result in approx. 1000*0.5*2*0.12 = 120 Nm of braking torque. Since a F1 wheel has a radius of approx. 0.33 m, 120 Nm equals a force of 360 N. This force will cause the wheels to rotate slower than the ground; a speed difference called 'brake slip'. If this force is high enough wheel speed will go to zero and lock up the wheel.

Braking performance is mostly grip limited, except for an initial phase at high speed where the grip is high due to the downforce and the brakes are still cold (it takes them about 1/3 of a second to heat up). In order to increase the 'clamp force' on the brakes the hydraulic leverage is maximized up to the point that the brake pedal travel becomes excessive. Similar, the stiffness of the braking system is maximized to minimize travel due to deflection.

[WhiteBlue]

They are vgoing to pay one way or another for tyres anyway. The next supplier will not pay but requirer advertisimg space for free. Bernie will not pay that out of his pocket but shorten the team payout accordingly.

Anything like the cost for 13 inch wheels will go on top of this and the bill will be quite substantial when you consider that testing will also go on top. Their best bet would probably be continuing to use Bridgestone but in a commercial fashion.