Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[myurr]

I don't quite buy the doctored result thing though. Vettel was very close to webber after the stops. If they wanted to doctor the result shouldn't Mark very conveniently have had a pitstop problem?

At this early point in the race the situation was not quite so clear cut. Plus it would have meant that Webber would loose time. That was not desirable. They obviously decided to use the moment when the drivers would detune their engines to get Vettel past Webber. It shows that they did not want to doctor the results at any cost but wanted the faster driver on P1. At least everything is consistent with that theory.

Yes. But until this last two laps Webber was consistently faster.

It's simpler than that regarding the pit stops. They couldn't have known that Hamilton would have had a sticking wheel nut - any delay to Webbers stop would have put Hamilton in to P1 had he not had his own problems.

[myurr]

Hopefully public opinion will prevent them from continuing this kind of manipulation...if Mark can extend his lead over Vettel that would help make the situation much harder for Redbull also.

I wont pretend im not a Webber fanboi, i was beginning to really like Redbull..not anymore, respect is lost.

Well I'm most definitely not a Webber fanboi - in fact most of the time he irritates me. He's too inconsistent to be considered a true great and all too often lets the red mist descend. A lot of the time I hate the way he defends and tries to bully drivers, this being amplified by the way he has hypocritically made public statements condemning others for doing pretty much the same thing.

I was never an out and out fan of Vettel, but did think he was an incredibly promising young driver who had managed to keep a level head and came across as a nice enough and likeable guy.

This year however Vettel has subtly changed in my view - he's probably not acting all that different to previous years but this year has managed to come across as, more than anything, smug. He's embodying his own hype, his celebrations seem over the top and insincere, etc. He's exhibited a rashness before in his overtaking, but has always apologised afterwards. This year he has become more bullying in his defending and where he's made an obvious mistake or taken something too far he's started mouthing off at the other driver.

The Istanbul Incident has merely become the latest example of this. In my mind there was no doubt that he was almost entirely to blame for what happened. He had not completed the pass and had no right to position his car anywhere he pleased. Cutting across another driver at nearly 200mph was as stupid, in my mind, as trying to push Hamilton into the Williams garage in China (Yes Hamilton probably should have yielded, BUT Vettel had no place pushing him like that. He would not have lost anything had he simply left him space).

Being a bit in front doesn't give you the right to do as you please - Webber had every right to hold his position on the track with the onus on Vettel to make his way past without contact. Webbers tactic was clear and perfectly legitimate - keep Vettel on the dirty side of the track so that he would outbreak himself into the next corner. Webber would be free to jink right at the last second and brake on the racing line, allowing him to brake later and more effectively. He would have most likely have been able to either duck underneath a sliding Vettel or get back alongside and follow him round on the outside getting the inside line on the next corner.

Had things been left there then my respect for Vettel would have slipped a bit, but that would have been the end of it. Instead the team management decided to rally behind their golden boy blaming the innocent party. Much as I don't like Webber, I absolutely hate to see someone unjustly accused in such a way. The hypocrisy of the team slowly rolling back their criticisms as they see the PR damage winds me up still further as they still claim it was merely a 50/50 incident.

Pretty much every other person in the paddock agrees that the blame lies squarely at the feet of young Sebastian - yet the fear of losing him to Ferrari has left the team feeding the kids ego as much as they can get away with, and has caused me to loose all respect for both the team and the boy wonder.

Edit: And before anyone starts saying that Vettel was ahead in both incidents I mentioned, at what point do you consider another car to be ahead? Surely at 1cm you would consider the cars alongside. What about at 1m? 2m?

The only objective method for determining whether a car is ahead and can therefore position their car wherever they please with no obligation to allow any other car space on the track is when there is no overlap at all. I even remember Rosberg being criticised early in his career for chopping across another driver on the approach to the braking zone of a corner after he was entirely ahead of the other car.

[Mysticf1]

Completely agree with 90% of what you say myurr...obviously i dont have the same opinion of Mark, although i concede he has done alot of stupid things in his time, incidents that irritate me more than most!! I was screaming obscenities at the melb GP this year i still believe he could be a worthy champion if he can string it together, he has speed and technical ability.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Now CH is trying to discredit Mark...i really can't understand what they are playing at..it gets worse by the day. All respect for CH is completely lost to me.

[WhiteBlue]

I don't quite buy the doctored result thing though. Vettel was very close to webber after the stops. If they wanted to doctor the result shouldn't Mark very conveniently have had a pitstop problem?

At this early point in the race the situation was not quite so clear cut. Plus it would have meant that Webber would loose time. That was not desirable. They obviously decided to use the moment when the drivers would detune their engines to get Vettel past Webber. It shows that they did not want to doctor the results at any cost but wanted the faster driver on P1. At least everything is consistent with that theory.

Yes. But until this last two laps Webber was consistently faster.

In such a situation it does not matter which car/drive package was faster in the race traffic but which would be faster in free air at the front of the race. Red Bull obviously thought that Vettel would be faster or they had never played with the thought of team order.

[WhiteBlue]

The Istanbul Incident has merely become the latest example of this. In my mind there was no doubt that he was almost entirely to blame for what happened. He had not completed the pass and had no right to position his car anywhere he pleased. Cutting across another driver at nearly 200mph was as stupid, in my mind, as trying to push Hamilton into the Williams garage in China (Yes Hamilton probably should have yielded, BUT Vettel had no place pushing him like that. He would not have lost anything had he simply left him space).

The only objective method for determining whether a car is ahead and can therefore position their car wherever they please with no obligation to allow any other car space on the track is when there is no overlap at all. I even remember Rosberg being criticised early in his career for chopping across another driver on the approach to the braking zone of a corner after he was entirely ahead of the other car.

myurr, I agree almost with all of what you say, particularly the last paragraph that I quoted. I also think that Vettel had no business to jink towards Hamilton in the China pit lane. He was rightly reprimanded for that.

But I have my doubts that we can blame him alone for causing the Turkey collision. Yes he was driving the car, but if he was told that Webber would yield for him due to a team order his action would make some sense. I would at least give him the benefit of doubt there.

[myurr]

myurr, I agree almost with all of what you say, particularly the last paragraph that I quoted. I also think that Vettel had no business to jink towards Hamilton in the China pit lane. He was rightly reprimanded for that.

But I have my doubts that we can blame him alone for causing the Turkey collision. Yes he was driving the car, but if he was told that Webber would yield for him due to a team order his action would make some sense. I would at least give him the benefit of doubt there.

I could agree with that if it were the case, but I don't believe that the team had told Vettel that Webber would yield. There was clearly no message to Webber to that fact, and the hints from the team that this was the case for Vettel smack of being part of their spin operation to protect him.

For me the killer quote was from Dr Marko where in the same interview he claims that they were both set for a guaranteed one two finish, but later claims that had Vettel not overtaken Webber then he would have been passed by Hamilton. If Webber was slower then surely he was even more vulnerable, so both statements cannot be true.

So I would like some firm evidence rather than team hearsay from an, in my view, untrusted source before giving Vettel the benefit of the doubt. But I do agree with you that if that were the case then it would become an unfortunate accident with neither driver to blame.

[aral]

myurr, I agree almost with all of what you say, particularly the last paragraph that I quoted. I also think that Vettel had no business to jink towards Hamilton in the China pit lane. He was rightly reprimanded for that.

But I have my doubts that we can blame him alone for causing the Turkey collision. Yes he was driving the car, but if he was told that Webber would yield for him due to a team order his action would make some sense. I would at least give him the benefit of doubt there.

I could agree with that if it were the case, but I don't believe that the team had told Vettel that Webber would yield. There was clearly no message to Webber to that fact, and the hints from the team that this was the case for Vettel smack of being part of their spin operation to protect him.

For me the killer quote was from Dr Marko where in the same interview he claims that they were both set for a guaranteed one two finish, but later claims that had Vettel not overtaken Webber then he would have been passed by Hamilton. If Webber was slower then surely he was even more vulnerable, so both statements cannot be true.

So I would like some firm evidence rather than team hearsay from an, in my view, untrusted source before giving Vettel the benefit of the doubt. But I do agree with you that if that were the case then it would become an unfortunate accident with neither driver to blame.

It would be nice to see shots from Hamiltons camera, as he was closely following Vettel at the time. There is some talk that Vettels rear tyre got slashed by Webbers car, and that this was the reason for the car pulling right suddenly. In other words, it may not have been a deliberate move to the right, but a move caused by a tyre deflation. Look at Vettles car, the tyre is badly ripped. But RBR have studied the evidence, and say that it was a racing accident. This could have happened with any other two cars, at any time.

[myurr]

It would be nice to see shots from Hamiltons camera, as he was closely following Vettel at the time. There is some talk that Vettels rear tyre got slashed by Webbers car, and that this was the reason for the car pulling right suddenly. In other words, it may not have been a deliberate move to the right, but a move caused by a tyre deflation. Look at Vettles car, the tyre is badly ripped. But RBR have studied the evidence, and say that it was a racing accident. This could have happened with any other two cars, at any time.

At the point of contact Vettel's car is clearly thrown to the right, presumably because the right rear loses traction. However watching the video or even the animated gif, Webber holds pretty much straight as an arrow with a slight rightward drift, but Vettel makes three small turns to the right deliberately edging the car over. His car has moved by around a metre to the right before contact is made. At the last second Webber does try and move right, but it is too little and too late to avoid the impact.

It's not a big swerve but, when viewed at full speed rather than slowed down, it is a definite move aimed at pushing Webber to the right. It's simply a case of Webber not flinching and Vettel not backing out of the move.

[segedunum]

It's simpler than that regarding the pit stops. They couldn't have known that Hamilton would have had a sticking wheel nut - any delay to Webbers stop would have put Hamilton in to P1 had he not had his own problems.

The sticking wheel nut didn't really change anything. Vettel simply gained several seconds via having put the hard tyres on first, which came as a bit of a shock.

[Lurk]

Actually it changes everything.

Hamilton was exactly 2.094s ahead Vettel when Vettel came into pit.
Then Hamilton came into pit the lap after, and lose 2.5s into the pit due to the wheel nut. (see their respective outlap)

[raymondu999]

I think in terms of track position we should actually compare Hamilton's inlap to Vettel's outlap

[aral]

It would be nice to see shots from Hamiltons camera, as he was closely following Vettel at the time. There is some talk that Vettels rear tyre got slashed by Webbers car, and that this was the reason for the car pulling right suddenly. In other words, it may not have been a deliberate move to the right, but a move caused by a tyre deflation. Look at Vettles car, the tyre is badly ripped. But RBR have studied the evidence, and say that it was a racing accident. This could have happened with any other two cars, at any time.

At the point of contact Vettel's car is clearly thrown to the right, presumably because the right rear loses traction. However watching the video or even the animated gif, Webber holds pretty much straight as an arrow with a slight rightward drift, but Vettel makes three small turns to the right deliberately edging the car over. His car has moved by around a metre to the right before contact is made. At the last second Webber does try and move right, but it is too little and too late to avoid the impact.

It's not a big swerve but, when viewed at full speed rather than slowed down, it is a definite move aimed at pushing Webber to the right. It's simply a case of Webber not flinching and Vettel not backing out of the move.

But the movements by Vettel could be the need to control the car as the rear tyre collapsed.

[myurr]

It would be nice to see shots from Hamiltons camera, as he was closely following Vettel at the time. There is some talk that Vettels rear tyre got slashed by Webbers car, and that this was the reason for the car pulling right suddenly. In other words, it may not have been a deliberate move to the right, but a move caused by a tyre deflation. Look at Vettles car, the tyre is badly ripped. But RBR have studied the evidence, and say that it was a racing accident. This could have happened with any other two cars, at any time.

At the point of contact Vettel's car is clearly thrown to the right, presumably because the right rear loses traction. However watching the video or even the animated gif, Webber holds pretty much straight as an arrow with a slight rightward drift, but Vettel makes three small turns to the right deliberately edging the car over. His car has moved by around a metre to the right before contact is made. At the last second Webber does try and move right, but it is too little and too late to avoid the impact.

It's not a big swerve but, when viewed at full speed rather than slowed down, it is a definite move aimed at pushing Webber to the right. It's simply a case of Webber not flinching and Vettel not backing out of the move.

But the movements by Vettel could be the need to control the car as the rear tyre collapsed.

At the point of steering he was no where near contacting Webber - so he either had a puncture before steering, which is something even Red Bull haven't claimed yet!!, or the puncture was because he steered to the right causing contact with Webber's car.

[Lurk]

Vettel
14 1.32.430 in
15 1.48.626 out
16 1.31.937

Hamilton
14 1.32.616
15 1.32.479 in
16 1.51.203 out


Gap progress (Ham-Vet)
14 -2.094
15 -18.241
16 + 1.025

[myurr]

I think in terms of track position we should actually compare Hamilton's inlap to Vettel's outlap

Well the easiest thing to do is compare to Webber. Hamilton was right on Webbers gearbox when they entered the pits, and Webber emerged ahead of Vettel. Without the sticking wheel nut the worst case would have been that Hamilton would have come out right behind Webber.

For them to artificially delay Webber in the pits to try and switch places with Vettel they would have in all likelyhood gifted the lead to Hamilton.