Secret to Red Bull's Q3 Pace - Engine Mapping

[gridwalker]

Of course it could be something Horner is putting about.

Correct. I think they have mounted a great circus to mislead everyone.

pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

I think WRC cars do that to avoid turbo lag, nothing to do with DF.

It doesn't matter if you have a turbo or a diffusor both demand volume flow.
So in fact we should look at how it is done on rally cars.
Why do you people never look over the horizon of Formula 1?

Because you are talking about different technology being applied for a different effect in a different setting.

Contextually, it is nonsense!

Just because one minor aspect bears a passing similarity, it doesn't mean that making the analogy isn't similar to throwing out red herrings like a demented fishmonger

[mep]

You want volume flow, what you do with it is not the point here.
No matter If you blow a diffusor or a fan you still need volume flow.
So the basic idea is not new at all especially when we consider that they might already have thought about this and used similar things when blown diffusors where very common.

[Caito]

Because you are talking about different technology being applied for a different effect in a different setting.

Contextually, it is nonsense!

Just because one minor aspect bears a passing similarity, it doesn't mean that making the analogy isn't similar to throwing out red herrings like a demented fishmonger

It's actually not different technology. To keep the turbo spinning you need a volume of air flowing, even with throttle released. To keep the downforce you need a volume of air flowing, even with throttle released. Both air flows are provided by the exhaust, how is it different technology?

Engines are pretty different, the use of that air is totally different, but the concept is the same.

[alelanza]

pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

I was about to say that. Now, on the wrc antilag, is there still a spark? i have it in my head that the mixture ignites due to the hot exhaust, but i'm not 100% sure. In the rb it would seem there's still a spark, albeit a very delayed one. I can only imagine that the F1 diffuser will require a lot more flow than the what the turbine needs?

pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

I think WRC cars do that to avoid turbo lag, nothing to do with DF.

I think you may have misread that sentence, by 'they' i think he meant the F1 cars

Contextually, it is nonsense!

Just because one minor aspect bears a passing similarity, it doesn't mean that making the analogy isn't similar to throwing out red herrings like a demented fishmonger

It does make sense, very similar principle, not why would you choose to use such harsh words/posture

[mike]

anti-lag system......instead of the pressure pushing the piston, the spark came at a much later timing, when the exhaust valves are open, hence the fuel mixture will ignite more inside the exhaust to push gases out of the exhaust pipes

Red bulls are using the exhaust to get downforce, turbo cars use exhaust to increase air intake, anti-lag system makes it less throttle sensitive thats all

[EAKMotorsports]

all make sense in wrc the engines only rev 8+/-k rpm on F1 18k rpm u really can make a goooood downforce with that.

[ringo]

could explain the Vettel's spark plug issues in barhain and cracked exhaust?
At the time that was the first true test of their system. Subsequently they have had no issues with it.
Funny how Horner passed it off as simple spark plug issue. Nice way to cover up what they were really doing.

[myurr]

could explain the Vettel's spark plug issues in barhain and cracked exhaust?
At the time that was the first true test of their system. Subsequently they have had no issues with it.
Funny how Horner passed it off as simple spark plug issue. Nice way to cover up what they were really doing.

Especially as when they later had to back track and not blame the manufacturer implying it was instead something the team were doing.

[marcush.]

huuu .I would not want to explain those funny things i´m doing to my engine supplier and the next day moaning about for their lack of HP...

but finally this makes sense.and explains the sudden loss of performance in the race.

[Del Boy]

Wild guess here: You fire the spark really late, after the exhaust valves open.

This way you get the same hot gas flow thru the pipes but you loose much of the torque from pressure loss. You are dumping burning fuel thru the exhausts, kinda running on afterburners. You also need the air intake open, so you loose some engine braking from intake choking.

My first doubt here is if the SECU will allow that. And the second being it would be easily noticeable on track from exhaust note - everyone would have figured that one out pretty easy.

EDIT:MW's and RK's onboards at F1.com show very different downshifts between the two Renault setups: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard.html

RJSA, You will need some compression for the mixture to ignite. Therefore you will need the valves to be shut when the spark fires. Although I am not sure how much compression is needed to acheive a 'burn'. As petrol usually explodes in F1 engines. However the theory is good if the valves remain shut and the spark happens very near to the bottom of the stroke.

[Belatti]

Why do you people never look over the horizon of Formula 1?

Not my case

I think you may have misread that sentence, by 'they' i think he meant the F1 cars

thats what happened

huuu .I would not want to explain those funny things i´m doing to my engine supplier and the next day moaning about for their lack of HP...

but finally this makes sense.and explains the sudden loss of performance in the race.

Interesting... now we need to prove it

[autogyro]

Yes and the first thing to explain is how (if the fuel is ignited in the exhaust)
do you stop it exploding and blowing huge flames out of the exhaust and possibly blowing the manifold right off the car.
That is what used to happen when we did it with dragster engines.

[Belatti]

That would be the difference between amateurs and professionals that can control and calculate what they do.

Also, there is another thing that makes me doubt about this theory: Renault

Does RBR engineer the engine on their own? How does the people at France doesnt know about it? How doesnt the Renault team has this feature?

[747heavy]

may you find some answers & ideas about this topic here.
Enjoy

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=132030

[rjsa]

Wild guess here: You fire the spark really late, after the exhaust valves open.

This way you get the same hot gas flow thru the pipes but you loose much of the torque from pressure loss. You are dumping burning fuel thru the exhausts, kinda running on afterburners. You also need the air intake open, so you loose some engine braking from intake choking.

My first doubt here is if the SECU will allow that. And the second being it would be easily noticeable on track from exhaust note - everyone would have figured that one out pretty easy.

EDIT:MW's and RK's onboards at F1.com show very different downshifts between the two Renault setups: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard.html

RJSA, You will need some compression for the mixture to ignite. Therefore you will need the valves to be shut when the spark fires. Although I am not sure how much compression is needed to acheive a 'burn'. As petrol usually explodes in F1 engines. However the theory is good if the valves remain shut and the spark happens very near to the bottom of the stroke.

I fail to see why you would need compression to ignite. It is not a diesel cycle. And exhaust valves will star opening much before the crank hits the bottom in such high rev engines.

Besides that the mixture will be already pretty hot from the dummy compression cycle - most likely all the fuel will be atomised and evenly distributed, if not vaporized and very high above flash point.