Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[Caito]

The Slipstream advantage, which disappared, prove to be fun, entertaining. That's why series such as NASCAR work so good.


In F1 there used to be that slipstream advantage which vanished due to reasons we all know. With it part of the entertainment vanished too. The DRS artificially recreates the slipstream advantage.

Hence, your soccer comparison is not viable. DRS is to artificially return something that was lost. But WAS there in a first place.



Most important. It's the same to all drivers. Rules are not driver dependant, just position dependant.

It's F1, it's supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports not the purest, driver vs driver series. Teams, technology, etc have to have a very important role. And first of all, it's entertainment. Remember that the majority of people who watch F1 are not technical guys. Just people who watch it because it's fun. If it isn't then something must be done.

[Ciro Pabón]

Integrity.

Agreed, the whole spectacle has been cheapened.

I wish. Have you ever bought tickets?

Shesh. I always forgot it's not racing anymore, but a spectacle, thanks for the reminder.

[Jeffsvilleusa]

I think Pirelli's degredation is sufficient, as evidenced by Alonso's rapid decline in China- he lost 3 places in 3 laps as he was a full 3 seconds off the pace.

The DRS is confusing to new viewers, controversial (as evidenced by the preceding 10 pages of posts), and potentially dangerous- take Sutil's slide in Australia for example, also Alonso's wing opened accidentally outside the DRS zone in China (what if it was on a high-speed turn? Although they probably wouldn't designate DRS zone immediately preceding a high-speed turn). Having drivers flipping too many switches gets a little ridiculous- sorry, I'm with Montezemolo and Barichello on this one.

[i70q7m7ghw]

That is nonsense. DRS is designed to work on the straights. That's exactly where the following car has an advantage of the dirty air. It's called the slipstream.

DRS is the same if FIFA or UEFA changed the football rules, so that the players could use hands, but only on the opponent's side of the pitch, so that the attacking team would get an advantage, artificially invented to achieve overall higher scores.

DRS is just designed to enhance the slipstream, I didn't see you complaining when McLaren turned up with the f-duct last year?

The way the FIA are setting up the DRS zones this year, it doesn't provide an actual pass, just an opportunity, the driver still needs the skills to overtake.

I guess the whole idea is to prevent the sort of thing we saw last year in Abu Dhabi where Petrov was able to hold Alonso back in a slower car with incredible ease (not that I didn't enjoy that!).

It's early days yet. If Pirelli can keep on top of this tyre compound stuff, and keep giving us 3 stop races, then I think it's possible we could lose DRS and still keep some overtaking. However, I think alot of the 'tyre-overtaking' we are seeing is down to teams not quite understanding the Pirelli tyres yet. Once everyone understand how they work, how long they last etc. and what strategies are best, everybody will be on the same strategy - the fastest one - and we will probably see less overtaking.

KERS. It might be expensive, but I feel this has probably been the biggest game changer, you just can't see it like you can see DRS. After winning in China, Hamilton described how he saved up his KERS for a specific point on the track, knowing Vettel wouldn't expect a pass there. This for me is brilliant race craft.

I'm not saying KERS is king or anything like that, but you've got to admit, they way it works is great for racing. What would be a cheaper alternative to KERS?

[i70q7m7ghw]

I think Pirelli's degredation is sufficient, as evidenced by Alonso's rapid decline in China- he lost 3 places in 3 laps as he was a full 3 seconds off the pace.

The DRS is confusing to new viewers, controversial (as evidenced by the preceding 10 pages of posts), and potentially dangerous- take Sutil's slide in Australia for example, also Alonso's wing opened accidentally outside the DRS zone in China (what if it was on a high-speed turn? Although they probably wouldn't designate DRS zone immediately preceding a high-speed turn). Having drivers flipping too many switches gets a little ridiculous- sorry, I'm with Montezemolo and Barichello on this one.

Maybe these drivers aren't good enough to be in F1? How long has Sutil been in Formula 1 and what has he achieved? Barrichello?

I don't think Alonso's wing opened on it's own, he would have to have been pushing the button.

[Pandamasque]

DRS is just designed to enhance the slipstream, I didn't see you complaining when McLaren turned up with the f-duct last year?

Why would I? The drivers were able to use their system everywhere, like throttle, brakes, you know... like controls, not just when Uncle Charlie allows to press a magic pass button to please the fans, whose attention span cannot endure watching the spectacle of two cars fighting for position for more than a lap.

Besides, I must have missed it when the slipstream got up and went away. Where has it gone? Did it take the dirty air with it?

[Mr Alcatraz]

Agreed, the whole spectacle has been cheapened.

I wish. Have you ever bought tickets?

Shesh. I always forgot it's not racing anymore, but a spectacle, thanks for the reminder.

Perhaps you should to open up your DRS (metaphorically speaking of course) and move past that traditional, unimaginative, conventional superior in your firm, and tickets prices wouldn't seem so prohibitive.

[Maidel]

Besides, I must have missed it when the slipstream got up and went away. Where has it gone? Did it take the dirty air with it?

The problem is, that at the preceeding corner the trailing car does not have as much downforce due to the car in front. Therefore, when its finally caught up down the straight it does not have enough time to make use of the slipstream. The DRS gives the 'effect' of having the slipstream down the entire straight, like you would have if you were not impeded by the dirty air at the last corner.


And, before anyone says 'well I have seen cars get slipstreams without the DRS' - the answer to this is simple. Yes they do, the problem is the car they are following is either MUCH slower than them round the corners, or the car in front made a mistake. When the car in front is as good or almost as good as yours, you will never benifit from the slipsteam unless the straight is REALLY long. (which is why, incidentally, they changed the DRS point at the last race to prevent it from being 'too good'.)

[Ciro Pabón]

Agreed, the whole spectacle has been cheapened.

I wish. Have you ever bought tickets?

Shesh. I always forgot it's not racing anymore, but a spectacle, thanks for the reminder.

Perhaps you should to open up your DRS (metaphorically speaking of course) and move past that traditional, unimaginative, conventional superior in your firm, and tickets prices wouldn't seem so prohibitive.

Perhaps.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I don't think Alonso's wing opened on it's own, he would have to have been pushing the button.

That doesn't mean jack-squat unless you have some proof.
The FIA controlled system failed---fact
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula ... 109394.stm

The device is enabled electronically by systems operated by the FIA, the sport's governing body

FIA officials are still investigating what caused the error

Still waiting for their results.
I'm of the belief that they would love to blame it on the pilot!

[i70q7m7ghw]

I don't think Alonso's wing opened on it's own, he would have to have been pushing the button.

That doesn't mean jack-squat unless you have some proof.
The FIA controlled system failed---fact
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula ... 109394.stm

Calm down please, I'm just talking from a safety point of view. It didn't just suddenly pop open on it's own like some are suggesting. So for example, such a failure isn't going to cause the wing to suddenly open mid Turn 8 in Turkey, because the driver is unlikely to press the button then.

People are wound up so tight around here, sheesh.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I don't think Alonso's wing opened on it's own, he would have to have been pushing the button.

That doesn't mean jack-squat unless you have some proof.
The FIA controlled system failed---fact
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula ... 109394.stm

Calm down please, I'm just talking from a safety point of view. It didn't just suddenly pop open on it's own like some are suggesting. So for example, such a failure isn't going to cause the wing to suddenly open mid Turn 8 in Turkey, because the driver is unlikely to press the button then.

People are wound up so tight around here, sheesh.

Good point! I was so aggressive I didn’t even say what I really meant.
But the idea that the DRS button may have been pushed outside of the DRS zone should not be a reason for the system to fail; in fact it should have no bearing at all in the issue.
Let's leave Fred out of this and make this completely hypothetical. Let us just say it was a talented pilot. Someone as talented as Alonso.
Let us say the pilot is the reincarnation of the great German pilot Rudolf Caracciola. With his three European Grand Prix championships, arguably the most successful pilot in terms of accomplishments while racing Mercedes-Benz cars.
And just to add some imagery, in his reincarnation he is the spitting image of Alfred E Newman.
He hits the current scene and takes it by storm, and comepletely dominates the season. However he has one odd quirk to his movements in the cockpit. For an inexplicable reason while working certain
controls outside the DRS zone he pivots a finger off the DRS button, maybe while adjusting the brake bias, or going into mysterious plan B mode. Even though this is probably not a great idea, for some reason this quirk is essential in his mind to achieve his edge on the rest of the field. He would be doing absolutely nothing wrong, and would not be responsible for the DRS being deployed outside its FIA controlled zone during the race.

[sudsbuoy]

A little off-topic:

I'd like to include a discussion of the battle between Massa and Button which resulted in a penalty. This was an old-fashioned battle in that we had a much faster car unable to execute a pass.

In the incident resulting in a penalty, Button was basically run off the road by Massa when he was virtually side-by-side with him. The Stewards' ruling stated Button was off the narrowly defined track (fractionally) when entering the corner (due to his avoidance of Massa's manuvering). Thus, it was Massa's corner.

It seems to me, if we're supposedly trying to encourage passing, drivers should be required to give each other racing room (I'm not talking about late dives into the side of someone's car). If this were the case, Massa could potentially have been penalized here, or the Stewards could have just let Button's pass stand as sufficient penalty.

Please comment.

P.S. I thought we were going to get more info on the Stewards as to qualifications.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I believe the stewards were correct in penalizing Button.
But again there will be those who disagree.
To me that was just ballsy defense by Massa.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Tazio I think you missed my point again. All I was stating was that Alonso's DRS opened where it did because he pushed the button - which normally wouldn't work during the race except the FIA system to disable it failed. It DID NOT magically open on it's own, are we clear? Now I AM NOT blaming Alonso for this, the error is clearly the FIAs and frankly my dear I don't give a damn. What I do wan't to make clear is in the future such a failure will not cause the rear wing to suddenly open in an area on the circuit that might be unsafe to see such a thing happen, because ultimately the system is still under the control of the driver.