End of oil and F1

[Ciro Pabón]

I was wondering in another thread if the idea of the push-to-pass button that is apparently planned for 2008 could be taken further.

How about "green" F1 rules that limit the fuel on board? You would push the teams to design a regenerating system that works. Given the money that F1 has, this would be a boost to hybrid cars. And given the efficiency of hybrid-cars, maybe by limiting the engine so drastically you could "release" the limits on aero and suspension. For an hybrid car to have the speed of an F1 you should allow anything on traction control, active suspension and engine displacement or power... It would be a research bonanza... Actually, I am not sure if storage systems can give you enough energy for even a single lap, but, this is why I am making this question.

After all, the basic design of F1 hasn't changed during my entire life (I am 46 now and I saw my first F1 race when I was 6: Jim Clark won). Probably, F1 cars 20 years ago were more advanced (as they incorporated new ideas, not refinements of old ones) than today's cars.

I think this is a really good idea, but I haven't seen an hybrid race series (I guess you will show me that they exist, but I am seeing here a marketing opportunity).

So, this is my (many parts) question:

How much energy could be stored in ultracapacitors?

Would it impact the stint length if they used them right now? Are regenerating systems regulated? Can they influence the result of a race under the present rules?

Has F1 some responsability about hybrid race cars development?

Aren't you ashamed of Max Mosley? After all, the 2008 rules incorporate a regenerating system that wastes energy (apparently, I concede. But this would be "a first" in the hybrid design world)

Can F1 take the researching lead in the race world by commiting to an hybrid or "green" F1 design?

Are not F1 designs a bunch of dinosaurs, using oil, giving you 2 or 3 km/lt?

Isn't this a cool idea?

And my final question, already posted in the original thread, do aliens exist? (hey, look at Schumi...)

[manchild]

For me F1 = gasoline powered 4 stroke engines, ruthless regrdless on cost racing with best technology available. Therefore anything that includes artificial "excitement" like push-to-pass, hybrid power etc. makes me think that best years of F1 have indeed ended in 1993. Apart from safety regualtions when it matters construction of car nothing else good was created in the previous decade and more. We all know recipe for great racing so I don't think that recipe which launched F1 and GP racing into legend from 1906 to the late 80s & early 90s should ever been changed or even changed additionaly now in same direction. I say that FIA should contionue increasing safety demands of both cars and tracks and let teams do what they've been allowed to do in 50s, 60s, 70, 80s and early 90s. Otherwise we're facing F1 to become one-chassis, one-engine & one-tyre boring series.

[Ciro Pabón]

For me F1 = gasoline powered 4 stroke engines, ruthless regrdless on cost racing with best technology available.

But, Manchild, my man, what are we going to do when oil ends? File F1? You should know I have been complaining about fans asking for excitement. But I think this would be excitement for the designers. It would be (and I think it is already) a new world for engine design.

Pilots and engineers would thrive again, like when they made the Bugatti 35, a really beautiful and successful car, with only a few tens of HP.

And, Manchild, I noticed how clever were you avoiding my question about aliens... Is this why you pretend to dislike Schumi? You are covering each other secret identitites!

[Tom]

Fiona Leggate (Nice looking girl, seems unlucky) runs a bio-ethanol car in the BTCC but it seems drasticly underpowered. Could be her driving though.

[Ciro Pabón]

Fiona Leggate (Nice looking girl, seems unlucky) runs a bio-ethanol car in the BTCC but it seems drasticly underpowered. Could be her driving though.

Thanx, Tom, first example... I take the opportunity to explain that ethanol is a no-no for energy, like hydrogen.

I have been working as consultant for the Ministry of Energy in Colombia. What I can tell you is that you need around 1 km2 of land for car (11 Has) per year. Do your own math and check if this is sustainable in your country, specially when useful land is decreasing because of global warming. Hydrogen is worse: check how they produce it today... it is an ecological nightmare. Electric cars, feed by a central coal-burning electricity plant have the same problem: you just put all the contamination in one place.

We concluded that, in Colombia, we should use ethanol when the agricultural products are going to be thrown away, and we are doing it right now under this limitation, but that we should stick to gas (NGV) for the next 20 years. Gasoline cars are as good as extinct in Colombia. Diesel can survive maybe another 5 to 10 years before fuel price make them impractical.

[joseff]

@Tom: Ethanol has about 66% the energy of petrol. Hence, eg. in F1 to do 20 laps you'll need 60kg of petrol, but 90kg of Ethanol. Edited: I misquoted the energy equivalence at 80%

@Ciro: "End of Oil" are big words. Frankly, I don't think any of us will ever live to see the End of Oil To wit, civilization has made the switch from wood to coal to whale oil to kerosene to petrol and we still haven't run out of wood/coal/whales. I, for one, welcome the coming necessary transition to nuclear (albeit a long, painful, economically depressed transition) and look forward to a cleaner future.

Back to topic, YES I DO wish that F1 could be more green. I actually proposed recently that the racing formula should be limited by energy. That is, given a minimum weight of 600kg and fuel containing a set amount (say 3gigajoule) of energy, designers should then race on it. Nevermind that the fuel is ethanol, diesel, petrol, or whatever. Then racing would truly be a way forward. A testing ground for new technology. Where all the billions of $$$ poured in would actually result in meaningful research, instead of releasing glossy press kits going gaga over your new zero-keel suspension. Breakthrough? I think not.

It'll be a win-win-win proposition. Racing fans get to enjoy the show. Anoraks can gush over bleeding-edge tech. Alternative energy research accelerated. Businesses make money over technology licensing. This is not tree-hugging green for the sake of green. It makes economic as well as moral sense.

[manchild]

But, Manchild, my man, what are we going to do when oil ends? File F1

I'd rather file it than watch it mutate into some solar green hybrid boring crap that would recquire this kind of driver



Imagine some new Murray Walker commenting like this "...and 3 times world champion Nico Rosberg is in the pits... mechanics are filling his primary tank with piles of bullshit necessary for production of bio-methane as imposed by FIA 2012 regulations...".

Or “… oh my goodness, Nelson Piquet Junior got his teammate into trouble by putting solar cells on his car into shade, picking all the sun and vanishing into distance reaching almost 32 km/h”

It's better to burn out then fade away

[yzfr7]

I too agree that fuel economy could be a target for motorsport. MotoGP kinda did that 2 or 3 years ago when they reduced the tank capacity. If I remember from 23 to 20 gal. Of course it is not a way for F1, as in MotoGP there are no pit-stops. Maybe limiting the quantity of fuel per race. It is the same they do with tyres, and F1 didn`t get boring because of that.
No doubt that an F1 engine can be more economic, but it will not happen by the teams own wish. No one will have a more economic engine without a performance gain, only to say they cause less polution. If all teams agree, if it is imposed by the rules, they will do it. I believe it`s why F1 exists (at least since manufactures are in it): to develop technologies for cars.

[wazojugs]

oil run out it won't happen for a very long time, the amount of oil that is being found especially in Kashgan and the technology that is being used to tap old wells will keep us going for along time.

trust me i am in the business

[joseff]

Millhouse weighs around 15kg. That makes him ideal F1 driver: extra ballast down low.

No, I'm not interested in solar car racing either. I'm thinking about something like the Audi R10. If the FIA deregulates the racing fuel but with an energy limit, then research into higher-efficiency fuels and engines becomes hot. Why? Simply because you'd rather spend $100M on gas turbine research and gaining 3-4 seconds a lap compared to refining aero kits on your petrol V8 car for 0.2-0.5 seconds a lap.

@wazo: Exactly my point: we will NOT run out of oil. Sadly, however, the new discoveries are being kept secret, and governments squat on their supply. Oil has become a political hostage these days, as it was in the 70's. The current hysteria about peak oil and fossil-fuel causing global warming has little scientific grounding. It's an urgent issue, but sadly politicized.

Guys, what are we discussing on this thread? Voting for/against the petrol internal combustion engines, or new powertrain tech?

[wazojugs]

i am remembering an article that stated that even though a grand prix engine does around 3-4mpg the speeds at which it runs and the power it gives out on a likew for like basis it is just as economical as the engine in our cars

[Ciro Pabón]

Ciro: "End of Oil" are big words. Frankly, I don't think any of us will ever live to see the End of Oil

I guess you must be older than me, Manchild and Tom. This is a new record...

The only thing experts agree on is that the world consumes more oil than it produces and that oil is a finite resource. Put those two phrases together and reach your own conclusions.

From there on, all are guessings. A lot of them say that around 2011 oil production will peak. Alonso will be racing by then, I hope.

I do not expect to die before, let's say, 2045. By then, oil will be used for very specific applications, surely not for race cars. I transformed to natural gas my 65' Pontiac "Goat" two years ago: of course, I kept the gasoline system, just in case you are right. And this is no "Milhouse car". More like Homer's...

[Tom]

I dissagree with joseff. Surely if your in the business you have made yourself believe that oil won't run out. That sounds very hard I know but what I mean is that I think you are being far too optimistic. I have done a bit of research into alternative fuels and I think that the energy lost through Bio-ethanol is 66% to petrol, however if you use a mixture of petrol and b/e the more petrol you use the less energy lost.

Even if we still use petrol if we use less than we do now by combining it with b/e it still saves a hell of a lot. Maybe enough to last 20 years if everyone does it.

We are currently running a CX diesel almost soley on used chip fat and we have never had any problems bar cold-starting. Also with our new batch of bio-diesel ready soon we are certainly saving alot. I know we can do more so I advise everyone on this site who has a diesel or knows someone etc to run it on chip fat or some similar substance to help save oil. You can recycle it from your local chippy and it is a hell of a lot cheaper too. I know this is going off my original topic but I am hoping that if 100 people start using this method (by seeing it here or hearing from someone who saw it here etc.) then it will save just that bit more.

Frankly I'm sure the future lies in hybrids. If they save that little bit of petrol when running slower if everyone has them we could make our oil resources last a long time. I hope.

[flynfrog]

I dissagree with joseff. Surely if your in the business you have made yourself believe that oil won't run out. That sounds very hard I know but what I mean is that I think you are being far too optimistic. I have done a bit of research into alternative fuels and I think that the energy lost through Bio-ethanol is 66% to petrol, however if you use a mixture of petrol and b/e the more petrol you use the less energy lost.

Even if we still use petrol if we use less than we do now by combining it with b/e it still saves a hell of a lot. Maybe enough to last 20 years if everyone does it.

We are currently running a CX diesel almost soley on used chip fat and we have never had any problems bar cold-starting. Also with our new batch of bio-diesel ready soon we are certainly saving alot. I know we can do more so I advise everyone on this site who has a diesel or knows someone etc to run it on chip fat or some similar substance to help save oil. You can recycle it from your local chippy and it is a hell of a lot cheaper too. I know this is going off my original topic but I am hoping that if 100 people start using this method (by seeing it here or hearing from someone who saw it here etc.) then it will save just that bit more.

Frankly I'm sure the future lies in hybrids. If they save that little bit of petrol when running slower if everyone has them we could make our oil resources last a long time. I hope.

as some one who has raced solar cars http://www.prisum.org i can tell you that while fun to desing and build there are an absolute bore to watch, Ive also learned that hybrids are not going to solve much think of all of the polution when you try to dispose of a litium battery pack.

For once i somewhat agree with manchild
but i say burn whatever you want for fuel and how ever much you need

[Nick]

I am a mechanical engineering student and all we have talked about this year is this very same question. Basically it boils down to the fact that no one really knows for sure and all the "facts" that people are relying on are just predictions. What can't be denied however is that demand is increasing every year and there is only a finite amount of oil in the ground.

As for making f1 into a green competition, I don't think any true fan watches it on race day and says to themselves, "man this is cool and all but I'd wish they'd use a bit less petrol". If the green thing floats your boat then there are tons of competitions out there for you such as the SAE supermilage (1200 mpg) or the solar powered endurance races in the states and Australia.