Japanese GP 2011 - Suzuka

[beelsebob]

Ah, I found what I wanted – an interview with Massa...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95216

Funny to see him raging again after another race where he collides with Hamilton, Hamilton comes off worse, and then comes back to finish ahead.

There are alot of similarities with the singapore incident, i.e. One driver trying to overtake another on the outside, the driver on the outside makes contact and damages his car. Obviously in the singapore incident massa also suffered. but the point im making is that if ham was to blame in singapore, and lets assume without the usual BS that he was. Then surely we must also say that massa was to blame for this incident. I know the corners are different, with different closing speeds etc etc. but I think the point i'm making is valid that Massa is being a bit hypocritical in once again having ago at Ham when I see this incident as his fault. Also note that I have only seen the race once and i am therefore only going off the benefit of the bbc coverage and replays. I am also not being bias towards any one driver before we get into the usual 'fanboy' criticisims.

Yep, agreed – The only reason Massa thinks he can get away with his whining is because 1) Hamilton is an easy target atm because he's made so many mistakes recently 2) He's worried about who's going to replace him at Ferrari.

[lebesset]

I used to have a great deal of sympathy for massa after all he has been through

not any more though , sooner ferrari get rid of him the better I shall be pleased, he has become ridiculous in my eyes

incidentally , I can't work out how ferrari is so fast in a straight line , suggests less wing /lower down force and yet is lightest on it's tyres ; promising for next year

[raymondu999]

I think Pirellis are making us rethink the more downforce = less tyre wear conventional wisdom. While excessive sliding would cause wear, I think the Pirellis suffer under heavy loads; both lateral as well as longitudinal. Singapore had a lot of longitudinal loads with traction and braking; and wrecked tyres that way. Suzuka had lots of lateral loadings.

Less downforce would have meant going slower through the sweepers; less degradation that way

[myurr]

Ah, I found what I wanted – an interview with Massa...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95216

Funny to see him raging again after another race where he collides with Hamilton, Hamilton comes off worse, and then comes back to finish ahead.

There are alot of similarities with the singapore incident, i.e. One driver trying to overtake another on the outside, the driver on the outside makes contact and damages his car. Obviously in the singapore incident massa also suffered. but the point im making is that if ham was to blame in singapore, and lets assume without the usual BS that he was. Then surely we must also say that massa was to blame for this incident. I know the corners are different, with different closing speeds etc etc. but I think the point i'm making is valid that Massa is being a bit hypocritical in once again having ago at Ham when I see this incident as his fault. Also note that I have only seen the race once and i am therefore only going off the benefit of the bbc coverage and replays. I am also not being bias towards any one driver before we get into the usual 'fanboy' criticisims.

Yep, agreed – The only reason Massa thinks he can get away with his whining is because 1) Hamilton is an easy target atm because he's made so many mistakes recently 2) He's worried about who's going to replace him at Ferrari.

I think it is probably one of three things, or probably a little of all of them. It could be a bit of Ferrari meddling to try and destabilise a competitor. Spread enough muck and some of it will stick, etc. Or it could be Massa seeking a scapegoat for his own medicore performances, and by focussing on Hamilton he can shift the blame and/or improve himself by giving him something to aim at. Or it could be that he now knows he's never going to get another shot at the title and feels Hamilton robbed him in some way in 2008.

Either way it's really quite pathetic and needs to stop. I used to think he was incredibly gracious in defeat in 2008 but over the last couple of years seems to have completely undermined that. He's been whining on about Alonso keeping the Singapore win that year saying that Renault's cheating cost him the title (overlooking all the other ifs and buts that year, such as the FIA gifting him the Spa win in very dubious circumstances), and now seems to make it his personal mission to attack Hamilton at every opportunity.

[myurr]

I think Pirellis are making us rethink the more downforce = less tyre wear conventional wisdom. While excessive sliding would cause wear, I think the Pirellis suffer under heavy loads; both lateral as well as longitudinal. Singapore had a lot of longitudinal loads with traction and braking; and wrecked tyres that way. Suzuka had lots of lateral loadings.

Less downforce would have meant going slower through the sweepers; less degradation that way

I think this is because it's not the tyres wearing out their rubber, it's thermal degradation due to too much heat building up in them. It is in those circumstances that the light on its feet Ferrari will have the upper hand, where they're deriving more of their lap time from being fast on the straights and less from putting load through the tyres in the corners.

Note how at the start of the stint they were unable to quite keep up the pace. They didn't have the downforce to work the tyres and get the most out of them. However towards the end of the stints they had built less tyre temperature and suffered less blistering as a result, and therefore had the advantage.

We saw this earlier in the year as well so it is not a new phenomenon.

[raymondu999]

Yup that's what I'm saying. I was responding to comments saying that Ferrari preserved their tyres "despite" a downforce deficit. But in this era actually it could be a benefit. Having said that it can't be that straightforward; or the new teams would be dominating the field

[PlatinumZealot]

It seems Hamilton just gave up after the puncture. Strange that his car had understeer after the incident with Massa. What was Massa thinking trying to overtake there? Going into a Gap that doesn't exist.

edit:

Hamilton did not give up. His differential was damaged?

Having watched the race again and read/listened to the post race comments, lewis really didn't do much wrong and i think the puncture cost him dearly, not just with the time/positions lost, but it made his strategy more difficult by pitting that early as he was very strong up until that point, the poor pit stops again didn't help either.
This article explains why he struggled for pace after...

"Lewis had a more difficult afternoon. We weren't immediately aware that Lewis appeared to suffer a slow puncture to the right-rear in the first stint. That created a growing pressure differential across the rear axle, and potentially led us to add too much front wing to compensate for the lack of balance at the rear.

"In hindsight, that may have led to Lewis fighting to find a satisfactory balance for the next two stints as we attempted to restore the set-up he'd enjoyed during the previous two days. It was a challenging afternoon for Lewis, but he never gave up, kept pushing and scored some strong points for the team. He had the pace this weekend, so I'm sure he'll be as tough as ever in Korea next weekend.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95219

[PlatinumZealot]

Interesting fact, this is Button's first win for McLaren at an entirely dry race

Was about to say that.

But even more fascinating is that all the times he has won, it is after Hamilton's race is destroyed. That definitely means that Mclaren has the strongest lineup.

[godlameroso]

I think if Hamilton didn't pressure Vettel at the beginning to destroy his tires, Button would have never caught up. Still a good race, I enjoyed it.

[nacho]

I think Massa was lining up for the pass, and he didn't really have anywhere else to go, he was already on the white line. Anyways, he should concentrate on getting back to speed, he's had horrible two seasons.

I think it was evident again that Red Bull suffers very much behind other cars and their lower top speed makes it even harder for them to pass.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think if Hamilton didn't pressure Vettel at the beginning to destroy his tires, Button would have never caught up. Still a good race, I enjoyed it.

He had puncture. The gap was 3.6 seconds to him and Button and then it just decreased rapidly until that point where he let Button by and being a good teammate he also slowed the following Ferrari a bit after.

[raymondu999]

smikle - golda was just saying that Hamilton's early laps forced Vettel to push harder; and this destroyed his tyres, which in turn helped set the victory up for Button.

[ringo]

what i find interesting is that Vettel would have won had he not come out in traffic.
He would not have come out in front of Button when Button pitted later, but if you look near the end of the race where both he and Alonso were reeling button in.
Vettel may have done the same thing if he was ahead of Alonso, which he should have been without the traffic.

redbull seem to have setup the car pretty strangely this race. It had the long run pace, but it took many laps to kick in.

For each stint, it took Vettel a good number of laps to get up to speed and setting quick sectors.

[raymondu999]

Ringo I don't think it was about the time it took to build up their long run pace; but I think generally they were quicker than the opposition on the primes; and not quicker on the options. I agree though - that 2nd or 3rd stop (where he came out behind Sutil) wrecked a good part of his race. I don't think he would have walked the race if that hadn't happened; but I think Button's victory would not have been so easy.

[Gerhard Berger]

I think Massa was lining up for the pass, and he didn't really have anywhere else to go, he was already on the white line. Anyways, he should concentrate on getting back to speed, he's had horrible two seasons.

I think it was evident again that Red Bull suffers very much behind other cars and their lower top speed makes it even harder for them to pass.

They were pretty high in the speed traps this weekend. The myth that the Red Bull is slow in a straight line needs to stop.