Japanese GP 2011 - Suzuka

[myurr]

True; but it's been demonstrated a few times this year that more stops usually is better than less isn't it? (to the limits of reason of course- a 20 stop race still won't be as quick as a 3 stop)

Tell that to Perez!

[raymondu999]

True; but it's been demonstrated a few times this year that more stops usually is better than less isn't it? (to the limits of reason of course- a 20 stop race still won't be as quick as a 3 stop)

Tell that to Perez!

How do you know he wouldn't have been quicker doing 1 more stop?

In all honesty though. That Sauber is just bonkers. My statement applies to anyone not in a 2011 Sauber

[beelsebob]

True; but it's been demonstrated a few times this year that more stops usually is better than less isn't it? (to the limits of reason of course- a 20 stop race still won't be as quick as a 3 stop)

Tell that to Perez!

How do you know he wouldn't have been quicker doing 1 more stop?

In all honesty though. That Sauber is just bonkers. My statement applies to anyone not in a 2011 Sauber

It's not been demonstrated that more stops is quicker at all. The race time given a particular number of stops is an upside down bell curve. The optimal often sits between 2/3 or 3/4 depending on the track. This is deliberate on the part of pirelli to try and get people running different strategies. Which of the strategies is fastest for you depends on more than just what the computer model says is the shortest race time, and also includes things like... are you going to get your big lead demolished at an inoportune moment by a safety car... Are you going to get your big defecit demolished by an opertune safety car... Are you going to have to do a lot of passing to make the strategy work.

[raymondu999]

What I meant is; for example when a race expects 3 and 4 stops; 4 is usually quicker. 2/3, 3 is usually quicker. For example, China, where Vettel on 2 got ambushed by Hamilton on 3. Turkey where Button on 3 got canned by Rosberg on 4. Vettel made easy meat of Alonso in Spa on 3 while Alonso was on 2. (After Vettel made 2 stops already, and Alonso made only 1, Vettel was already ahead of Alonso again; so this was not about the Ferrari's hard tyre deficit).

Circuits where overtaking has been "simple," usually have favored the strategy with 1 more stop. (amongst the better strategies)

[beelsebob]

What I meant is; for example when a race expects 3 and 4 stops; 4 is usually quicker. 2/3, 3 is usually quicker. For example, China, where Vettel on 2 got ambushed by Hamilton on 3. Turkey where Button on 3 got canned by Rosberg on 4. Vettel made easy meat of Alonso in Spa on 3 while Alonso was on 2. (After Vettel made 2 stops already, and Alonso made only 1, Vettel was already ahead of Alonso again; so this was not about the Ferrari's hard tyre deficit).

Circuits where overtaking has been "simple," usually have favored the strategy with 1 more stop. (amongst the better strategies)

Yep, generally that is the case, the trade off is whether you can make the passing work against whether you can make the tyres work. At sazuka, overtaking is hard enough that you don't want to have to overtake.

[raymondu999]

Yep I know. Suzuka has never been an overtaking haven. I found it interesting that there were very few overtakes into the chicane this year; and very few in the hairpin too. But the difference in grip level of the tyre could be enough to offset that.

[komninosm]

Certainly, the rules do seem to suggest that what button did was illegal:

43.3 After receiving the end-of-race signal all cars must proceed on the circuit directly to the post race parc fermé without any unnecessary delay, without receiving any object whatsoever and without any assistance (except that of the marshals if necessary).
Any classified car which cannot reach the post race parc fermé under its own power will be placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who will take the car to the parc fermé.

If he could get there, he should have, basically.

Nothing illegal there and it's been done before. His car could not "reach the post race parc fermé under its own power and his car was placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who took the car to the parc fermé."
The end.

[beelsebob]

Yep I know. Suzuka has never been an overtaking haven. I found it interesting that there were very few overtakes into the chicane this year; and very few in the hairpin too. But the difference in grip level of the tyre could be enough to offset that.

That, and DRS really did seem to work *just* right... If you had a car fast enough to overtake, you could generally overtake into turn 1.

[Dragonfly]

Certainly, the rules do seem to suggest that what button did was illegal:

43.3 After receiving the end-of-race signal all cars must proceed on the circuit directly to the post race parc fermé without any unnecessary delay, without receiving any object whatsoever and without any assistance (except that of the marshals if necessary).
Any classified car which cannot reach the post race parc fermé under its own power will be placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who will take the car to the parc fermé.

If he could get there, he should have, basically.

Nothing illegal there and it's been done before. His car could not "reach the post race parc fermé under its own power and his car was placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who took the car to the parc fermé."
The end.

Amen!

[beelsebob]

Certainly, the rules do seem to suggest that what button did was illegal:

43.3 After receiving the end-of-race signal all cars must proceed on the circuit directly to the post race parc fermé without any unnecessary delay, without receiving any object whatsoever and without any assistance (except that of the marshals if necessary).
Any classified car which cannot reach the post race parc fermé under its own power will be placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who will take the car to the parc fermé.

If he could get there, he should have, basically.

Nothing illegal there and it's been done before. His car could not "reach the post race parc fermé under its own power and his car was placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who took the car to the parc fermé."
The end.

Note – could and did are not the same thing.

I'm not calling for a penalty or anything... just straightening up that if all teams started doing this on a regular basis, the FIA would slap them.

[LionKing]

He obviously doesnt mean mclaren have done it on purpose...but its clear hes been let down by the team on quite a few occasions, throw in mistakes and atrocious bad luck and you have this situation.
This year will only make him stronger, he's still the fastest guy out there.

McLaren cost Button more than Hamilton. Not securing the wheel this year at Silvertone, another hydraulics failure at Germany this year. Hamilton's DNFs are incident related.

As for the speed, I believe Vettel is faster than Hamilton, and likely Rosberg too over one lap. Rosberg and Vettel is sublime in qualifying and almost always extract the maximum.

[CHT]

True; but it's been demonstrated a few times this year that more stops usually is better than less isn't it? (to the limits of reason of course- a 20 stop race still won't be as quick as a 3 stop)

Really depending on the characteristic of the pitlane and also the chance of SC.

if Vettel was running a 4 stops race at Suzuka, his race will also be ruined by the SC period at lap 24. By then he should have already completed his 2nd stop on soft.

Actually, that would make his race not ruined. By the end of your second of 5 stints, you should have come out just behind the people half way through their second of 4 stints, a safety car at that point would actually be great for you – it would get you caught up behind them again.

When the SC was deployed at lap 24, all the front runners were already on their 3rd stint, which mean they only need to make 1 more pit stop to finish the race.

If assuming Vettel was running a 4 stops, he would still have to make another 2 more pit stops. Assuming the pit stop at Suzuka take about 23secs, then Vettel will have to open up >23 sec gap between lap 27 to lap 53 in order to make the additional stop and still come out in front.

Is that possible?

[bizadfar]

That was a good race on one of the best tracks, I still can't believe they tried to replace this with Fuji..

Congratulations to Seb and RBR for a well deserved title =D>

Also congrats to JB for the win and Alonso for being up there when he really shouldn't, though I think Vettel might have been a bit extra cautious just to secure the title as early as possible. Let's see how he will drive in the remaining 4 races.

With regards to the latest Hamilton incident, after all the aggression expressed by fellow forum members against Felipe it seems LH did the right thing and took responsibility (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2695 ... a-contact/) for what was clearly his fault: he might not have actually seen Massa, but he sure as hell knew he was way too slow out of 130R. Still, I don't think that was worthy of any penalty. Now we'll probably have a few posts explaining how it was not Lewis' fault, despite the fact he apologized for it..

As for the start, I really think Button should have kept his straight line, it was Vettel who had everything to lose and should have backed off, but either way the WDC would be his. Seems JB is too much of a nice guy. Maybe he can work on it for next year!

Here's hoping Ferrari and McLaren can be closer to RBR next year, with Mercedes up there too. A 7-way battle for the WDC would be excellent after what we had this year..(I'm excluding Massa for obvious reasons)

I'm normally quick to jump on Hamilton this year, because he's disappointed me performing under his abilities and then being overagressive to make it up(a repeated thame this year). But honestly, what Hamilton did, is nothing compared to Vettel's behavior on the start. He claims not to have seen Button, but let's use logic. If Button got a bad start, then no reason to swerve over, but if Button got a good start thare may be a reason to swerve but with a good start Vettel knows Button is already there. Vettel claims he didn't see Button but if Button's not coming along side then there is no reason to swerve. Vettel swerved BECAUSE HE KNEW BUTTON WAS ALONGSIDE HIM
I truly believe Vettel was ENTIRELY TO AGGRESSIVE and he deserved a penalty.

wawawawawa.
What's with you modern f1 fans?

It's a schumi quote.

Montoya got fined for calling schumi blind or stupid. Imo, rightfully so (Montoya, not the fine).

But such is F1.

[beelsebob]

He obviously doesnt mean mclaren have done it on purpose...but its clear hes been let down by the team on quite a few occasions, throw in mistakes and atrocious bad luck and you have this situation.
This year will only make him stronger, he's still the fastest guy out there.

McLaren cost Button more than Hamilton. Not securing the wheel this year at Silvertone, another hydraulics failure at Germany this year. Hamilton's DNFs are incident related.

As for the speed, I believe Vettel is faster than Hamilton, and likely Rosberg too over one lap. Rosberg and Vettel is sublime in qualifying and almost always extract the maximum.

Not all of them... for example, not putting him out for a banker during Monaco qualifying.

[LionKing]

He obviously doesnt mean mclaren have done it on purpose...but its clear hes been let down by the team on quite a few occasions, throw in mistakes and atrocious bad luck and you have this situation.
This year will only make him stronger, he's still the fastest guy out there.

McLaren cost Button more than Hamilton. Not securing the wheel this year at Silvertone, another hydraulics failure at Germany this year. Hamilton's DNFs are incident related.

As for the speed, I believe Vettel is faster than Hamilton, and likely Rosberg too over one lap. Rosberg and Vettel is sublime in qualifying and almost always extract the maximum.

Not all of them... for example, not putting him out for a banker during Monaco qualifying.

At least Lewis was at top ten.

At SPA Jenson lined up 12th on the grid and he had even asked to team "Are you sure?" at the end of Q2