Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[xpensive]

...
I can imagine Richard Branson being seduced for the razzamatazz of the WCC, but surely a rational teutonic approach would not be swayed by the froth of 2010?
...

Perhaps Richard Branson was seduced by MrE's "hospitality-girls", which made his recordlabel-singers all look like Susan Boyle?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mercedes have not been a team since the 50s.
...

I hear that some people have argued they are still not, just owners of a mediocre British team with cars painted silver?

Or something to that effect, but people talk so much.

So now Mercedes ownership is in question? You go to brackley and speak to the 550 staff(people who actually work in F1) what they think about it.
It doesn't matter what it was before. Ferrari used to be modded alfas, beemers Messerschmitt', lamborghini tractors, Audi dressed up VWs(oh wait those still are...)

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@seija

The problem is, criticism is not taking into consideration how Mercedes fared when they first entered F1 in the early 90s.
They stuck by the project.
This time round teething problems arise, and Mercedes/it's staff/3kings/brawn/management structures are to blame... Take your pick.
Could it be that, McLaren red bull and Ferrari just have more experience, nous and capacity to produce the goods? Of course.
How long did it take for them to get where they are today? Red bull have done so with mountains of cash and Newey.
Mercedes do not have the luxuries to accomadate this.

My own opinion is that Mercedes where drawn into it for many reasons.
A) liegate
B) spygate
C) split in policy with McLaren.
D) funding an on road rival to the tune of 80 million will not sit well in Stuttgart.
E) Mosleys RRA plan that included a slide scale in budgets and staff.
F) Brawn producing the goods at the perfect time using Benz V8s.

You add all these up, and it's very easy to see the why.

The sleeves are rolled up now, and they are capable of winning. That is year on year progress for me.

[xpensive]

...
The sleeves are rolled up now, and they are capable of winning. That is year on year progress for me.

They should roll up their socks if you ask me, being consistently beaten by x-Renault is hardly dignifying Mercedes.

[SeijaKessen]

One would presume, Mercedes bought out the team with the championship season in mind, and decided in doing so, it would give them a greater advantage than most teams.

I really think that's the most reasonable course of thought, don't you JET?

The most reasonable course of thought is that Merc knew that underlying the freak WCC was a midfield team. Knowing Merc's reputation and their long term approach with McLaren, a rational person with their feet on the ground would use this approach (well I would anyway!)

If Merc thought they were buying instant success then they were fools buying a pig in a poke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke

I can imagine Richard Branson being seduced for the razzamatazz of the WCC, but surely a rational teutonic approach would not be swayed by the froth of 2010?

Looking at history, we can see that 4th for two years in a row is the best performance in a decade for this team:

2001 - 6
2002 - 8
2003 - 5
2004 - 2
2005 - 6
2006 - 4
2007 - 8
2008 - 9
2009 – 1
2010 – 4
2011 – 4

Richard,

While we might like to think a rational teutonic approach would be immune to methods that might sway lesser men such as Mr. Branson, at the end of the day, people are still people, and bad decisions are made due to persuasive cases being made. Seeing a team win the WDC and WCC is persuasive enough in itself...I'm sure we would certainly agree that it is extremely difficult to field a winning Formula One team, correct? Any potential shortcut is liable to be taken. In fact we see it throughout the course of the season with engineers trying to skirt the rules in creative methods. We see it quite often in the corporate sector with people trying to skirt rules...we only need to look at the past several years on a global level.

If MGP comes in as a fresh entry, without buying out a team, the 4 and 4 from the last 2 seasons, is that as likely?

By the same token, the 4 and 4 is what led me to predict a huge season for MGP, that simply to date has not materialized.

[SeijaKessen]

There's also something I would like to point out that seems to have been missed...

Things can always change, I am a firm believer of that.

But, Mercedes as a works team --in all motorsports-- had the bulk of their success during the first half of the 20th century.

There was brief success with the FIA GT Championship in the 90s, but that ultimately went south, and there were the debacles at Le Mans with their cars flipping upside down.

Mercedes as an engine supplier these last 20-25 years has been vastly more successful than any of their works efforts.

Perhaps, some entities are best left to focus only on certain things?

[Pierce89]

Mercedes have not been a team since the 50s.
Their return was as much about their split with McLaren as it was about a fabled return. How they decide to forge ahead is new uncharted waters, regardless of whom works for the team.

Mercedes are not in F1 now. They bought a F1 team based in England. No employees there(management aside, possibly) are truly "Daimler" people. MGP is a Formula 1 team run by entrenched career F1 people. What does Mercedes not
being in F1 for 50 yrs have to do with a team that has been in F1 for decades? I still think Ross Brawn is an intelligent,capable F1 guy, but the last few years have shown he's not a F1 god that can simply lay hands on a team and instantly turn them into champions . I think this teams lacks the mid-level engineering talent the top teams have. The three kings will go nowhere without talented engineers to flesh out their ideas.(look at HRT, I'm not sure Willis helped them at all)

[xpensive]

Philosophical now, but with a bit of xperience of leading engineering departments here and there, although within walks of life a far cry from the technical demands of Formula One, I believe that I can relate to the concept of "in-depth knowledge".

This is something very basic, which to my mind is essential to technical management, to somehow "foster" a certain way of thinking and approach to the task at hand. This is not a walk in the park for a new arrival at the helm, every outfit have their own "mythology" on what is the best way of doing things, why there always will be individuals reluctant to change.

With my background of taking over teams of 10-20 complacent engineers, always ready to blame a former manager, or why not another department, I can only begin to imagine what it would be like to take charge of 200, let alone 300.

I understand that Mike Gascoyne had his own way of dealing with that, it worked at Renault but not so much so at Toyota.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mercedes are not in F1 now

I don't mean to be rude, but where have you been for 2 and a half years?
It's Mercedes owned. It represents their outlay, and is now in full control of Daimler as Aabar are out of the picture.

I really shouldn't be pointing this out on this website.

[bhall]

What he meant is that the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team is Mercedes in name only. Otherwise, we're still talking about a team in Brackley that's sucked for most of its existence through many different iterations.

A real Mercedes works team would be based in Stuttgart and would probably have considerably different results. (Or would have been killed off already.)

[marcush.]

What he meant is that the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team is Mercedes in name only. Otherwise, we're still talking about a team in Brackley that's sucked for most of its existence through many different iterations.

A real Mercedes works team would be based in Stuttgart and would probably have considerably different results. (Or would have been killed off already.)

AMG Mercedes Grandprix is not a Daimler company in the sense of AMG,Evobus or Smart that´s an undeniable fact Would a Daimler Stuttgart or affalterbach based outfit be more efficient or competitive? I would doubt this-just look at the giant failure of Toyota -in Germany-it just did not pan out ...and I see no sign of Stuttgart being more suited to the demands of
Formula 1.

[SeijaKessen]

I often wonder how an Audi entry would fare in F1.

If there is any manufacturer that could succeed, it would be Audi. Dr. Piech knows how to achieve results better than anyone in racing.

[bhall]

AMG Mercedes Grandprix is not a Daimler company in the sense of AMG,Evobus or Smart that´s an undeniable fact Would a Daimler Stuttgart or affalterbach based outfit be more efficient or competitive? I would doubt this-just look at the giant failure of Toyota -in Germany-it just did not pan out ...and I see no sign of Stuttgart being more suited to the demands of
Formula 1.

Too true. And, frankly, that may very well be the reason why Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team is what it is and where it is. Daimler AG can avail itself of the same sort of plausible deniability PR strategy used by BMW when it retained the Sauber name.

In other words, "Don't look at me. He did it."

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What he meant is that the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team is Mercedes in name only. Otherwise, we're still talking about a team in Brackley that's sucked for most of its existence through many different iterations.

A real Mercedes works team would be based in Stuttgart and would probably have considerably different results. (Or would have been killed off already.)

This is the point. Mercedes could have blown hundreds of millions doing just that. With no guarantee of success.
Brawn was on its knees and Mercedes paid 90 million for a factory complete with skeleton crew.
Compare that to purchasing land and constructing an operation from scratch.... 500 million plus!

I would guess brawn would be dead by now. It would not have had its championship cash as this was forwarded the year before, 24 months with no FIA money is a death knell.
Look at caterham, circa 60-80 million setup costs. Where are they?

If someone takes over an operation and rebrands, with a mandate of conducting operations, purchasing expensive new equipment, and sacking staff and employing new staff, it becomes an entirely different proposition to what it was before. It becomes the owners entity.

Mercedes builds cars in china and around the world. Doesn't make it any less a Mercedes. AMG was independent, now it is Mercedes sporting arm. Things change.
Some would have us believe it doesnt, but think for a minute where "brawn" would be today sans Mercedes-Benz.

[bhall]

Buried with dignity?

EDIT: It should be said that I'm not reveling in Mercedes' troubles. I just find the whole thing odd.